Lowest Frequency Response

[bgavin]

I'm not trying to turn this into one of these "My quotes are better than yours" things...

Admirable intent. My take as always, "show me the charts." Until that happens, comparison arguments are no more than fish stories.

Anyhow, maybe the only way I'll get the sound I want is to hit up an 18" and maybe throw a 12 or 15 on top of it, who knows.

Get yourself out, and hear a bass horn.

If you are really hunting for deep clear bass, and willing to haul around the real estate required to produce it, there is no substitute for a bass horn. Or a herd of 'em if you require maximum balls at 31 Hz.

Your tool has to be large enough to do the job. Paddling a canoe with a tea spoon is pointless.

 

[rockstarbassist]

Understandable.

I'm not sure where I could even hear one of those? Are those the big bins that I've seen from time to time? I bet that'd do it!

And are you frontin' on my Mesa, or was that just me??
I need to check the "Slave Out" function on my amp, because if I can run my head into say a 112, and then slave out to a power amp, and still get the tone, well, it just so happens I HAVE a power amp sitting all alone in my closet that could power a single 18 or something quite nicely at 1500W.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

there have been some lab sessions that claim people can hear a pure tone down to 20 Hz

I've tested speakers at 90dB output at 20 Hz. If I hadn't seen the reading on the meter I wouldn't have known there was any sound at all.

 

[BartmanPDX]

I've tested speakers at 90dB output at 20 Hz. If I hadn't seen the reading on the meter I wouldn't have known there was any sound at all.

+1. I've used a pure tone DVD that gradually steps down in frequency to test my home theater subwoofer (I went wayy overboard and got a 15" one that can go down to 16 Hz at well over 100dB), and when the tone drops below 30Hz, I can feel the bass, shaking the whole room at certain frequencies, but I pretty much stop hearing it around 25Hz or so. Aside from the shaking produced at the room's resonant frequencies, some of the points below 25Hz simply are not audible.

In my book, unless you want to broadcast tones that people FEEL rather than HEAR, you don't really need much below 30Hz.

 

[Calaverasgrande]

as far as all these infinite baffle designs claiming below 40 hz with 103db 1w1m, horsehockey! For that kind of response you need a floded horn cab. Like the Acoustic 360?(I could be off on the number) which ws a self powred 18" speaker ina folded horn cab. That was the backline for a lot of low end heavy eacts of the 70's and 80's including Jaco from what I have heard. Folded horns have this interesting property of throwing low end. You really can barely hear them right in front, but go out 15 feet and its dub land. I have a folded horn 4x12 by GK that I use only when the gig does not involve stairs.
second on the Bagend. They make a sytem called ELF. It comprises 10,12,15 or 18 inch drivers in a very small box. The low frequency integrator does some trick with a filter, either way it operates the speakers BELOW resonance so that you can go down to 20hz or 10 hz or 8hz in the case of the 18"! I've never seen a bassist use teh ELF integrator, probably becasue it costs about $800-$2000 in additon to the cabs and amp. Their 12" and 15" instrument enclosures are pretty nifty though. And they make the 18" that goes into the original SWR big ben. I cant speak for post buyout SWR.
But me for serious low end I like my Mackie 15" powered sub.

 

[Calaverasgrande]

ah, one more thing with my "sound guy" hat on, most of what you are hearing in a "dubby" bass sound (reggae), is low low mid. As mentioned elsewhere, below 40 hz is getting into THX land. for a really boomy wall of reefer sound just cut all highs and mids and bump up the 80-120 hz. Most speakers can do that pretty well.

 

[rockstarbassist]

Thanks for those tips.

I've heard the BE's mentioned more than once.

Regardless of what I get, I think I'm gonna add a dbx Subharmonic synth to my rack sometime in the near future...
I think that'd be awesome.

Also, if I were to say get a 112 and 115/118 rig, would it be even worth my time to get a reasonable crossover and filter it high/low?

 

[bgavin]

I have the dbx sub-synth in my rack.

You had better make sure your drivers will handle an honest 26 hz, because that is what they put out. There is no 2nd harmonic double-talk in this instance. The 26 Hz fundamental is all there, and will tear hell out of most drivers at any appreciable power level.

My Rockford RFR-2215 subs are tuned at 20 Hz, and flat to 26 Hz or so. They handle the dbx 120a, but require a huge amount of power, and still don't make much noise. Two 1x15 are maxed out in a typical bar, and four 1x15 isn't enough outdoors.

Indoors, you will find the sub-synth generates mud. Outdoors, it won't generate enough of anything, unless you have BIG bass horns, and several of them.

 

[rockstarbassist]

Hmm, maybe I just best stick with a good crossover then.
Anyone know of one to suggest?

I just talked to Mark @ AccuGroove about the Gordo MODNY and I are discussing, and I think I'm gonna jump on it. He had nothing but good things to say about it, and to complete the full-range thing, I might even pick up a decent quality 12" PA cab w/ a horn or something.
I gotta make sure I'm reading the Slave Out on my amp right, though. Cause if so, I've got a power amp I can use JUST on that 18" and really make it thump.

 

[62bass]

as far as all these infinite baffle designs claiming below 40 hz with 103db 1w1m, horsehockey! For that kind of response you need a floded horn cab. Like the Acoustic 360?(I could be off on the number) which ws a self powred 18" speaker ina folded horn cab. That was the backline for a lot of low end heavy eacts of the 70's and 80's including Jaco from what I have heard. Folded horns have this interesting property of throwing low end. You really can barely hear them right in front, but go out 15 feet and its dub land. I have a folded horn 4x12 by GK that I use only when the gig does not involve stairs.
second on the Bagend. They make a sytem called ELF. It comprises 10,12,15 or 18 inch drivers in a very small box. The low frequency integrator does some trick with a filter, either way it operates the speakers BELOW resonance so that you can go down to 20hz or 10 hz or 8hz in the case of the 18"! I've never seen a bassist use teh ELF integrator, probably becasue it costs about $800-$2000 in additon to the cabs and amp. Their 12" and 15" instrument enclosures are pretty nifty though. And they make the 18" that goes into the original SWR big ben. I cant speak for post buyout SWR.
But me for serious low end I like my Mackie 15" powered sub.

I used the Acoustic 360 when it first came out for big live gigs. There's now way it went below 40 Hz, in fact I doubt it even went that low. It did put out a lot in the 70Hz range and the sound was louder once you moved out front. With 2 cabs the sound was bigger.

I never did like the sound of it in a small room. Of course, I don't think it was any where near as refined as what you can buy today. A lot of guys used them for a while, until PAs got good enough to support bass going direct.

I'm surprised at the number of bassists who want to go back to using these monsters. Our group used all Acoustic (we had a factory deal). Loud yes-good sound , no.

A properly designed folded horn is a different matter.

 

[GreyBeard]

Real true bottom end, is usually big and power hungry. The 1st speakers to come out to offer really low end were Acme. They sound great but need a ton of power. But you could go for a Acme 4x10 (subs only), a crossover and a poweramp for less money than most of the boutique speakers alone. http://acmebass.com/

 

[billfitzmaurice]

I used the Acoustic 360 when it first came out for big live gigs. There's no way it went below 40 Hz, in fact I doubt it even went that low.

Not flat, for sure. A horn works at full sensitivity only to where the horn path is at least a quarter-wavelength long and the horn mouth perimeter at least a half-wavelength long with the mouth on the floor/ground. A wavelength at 40Hz is is 28 feet long. You can do the rest of the math, but suffice it to say that no single horn loaded box of reasonable size will go flat to 40Hz unless it's placed in a corner (the room walls then serve as extensions of the path and mouth area). The 360 was likely only flat to perhaps 80 Hz, but even at that it would kill sealed or reflex cabs.

Loud yes-good sound , no.

Unfortunately the folding geometry used by Acoustic didn't allow for response much above 800Hz, so they had no midrange, and using as large a driver as they had to with '70s driver technology the box was far larger than need be. But at the time they were still about as good as it got.

 

[bgavin]

Real true bottom end, is usually big and power hungry.

Actually, it is big OR power hungry.

There are a number of good drivers that are both very efficient and provide deep response... in huge cabinets. That is the trade-off between Low, Loud, Small. Pick any two.

The Delta 15a is flat to 20 Hz with 97 SPL in only 20 cubic feet. This is a cube with external dimensions of 34", which makes it almost the same volume as a full size Tuba 36.

 

[paulraphael]

I've tested speakers at 90dB output at 20 Hz. If I hadn't seen the reading on the meter I wouldn't have known there was any sound at all.

Have you tried with headphones? Most decent quality studio monitors are flat (maybe -3db or so) to 20 hz.

I haven't done it with a test that goes down to 20hz. My general experience, though, is that with speakers that truly go deep (like full range audiophile speakers) those low notes get into a range where it's hard to tell if you're hearing them or just feeling them. Some organ music uses those low octaves, and there's a lot of rumbling going on in your bowels when you listen. If you don't even feel the rumbling, my guess is the speakers aren't putting out much of anything.

There's a cool hearing test that goes down to 30 hz at http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/hearing.html. It lets you chart your hearing response over a wide frequency range (if you have decently accurate phones). Both my ears were at -36db at 30hz. Worse at the high end ... one of them was -60hz at 16khz, the other one couldn't hear 16khz at all. Maybe that's why I like the bass

 

[billfitzmaurice]

If you don't even feel the rumbling, my guess is the speakers aren't putting out much of anything.

90dB at 20 Hz is a long way from much of anything. I do all my testing outdoors, otherwise accurate results aren't possible. Indoors 90dB at 20 Hz still might not be heard, but you would definitely hear the house falling down around you.

 

[Blues Cat]

Carvin BRX12 does 30hz. The 410 does 26hz.

 

[The 0x]

I was thinking RSB, that maybe to get a dubby sound, you don't need a whole lot of lows, but perhaps it's your choice of basses that's preventing you from getting that sound?



*cough*Get a P-bass with flats*cough*

 

[rockstarbassist]

I was thinking RSB, that maybe to get a dubby sound, you don't need a whole lot of lows, but perhaps it's your choice of basses that's preventing you from getting that sound?



*cough*Get a P-bass with flats*cough*

Getting cabs and basses that can do more than 1 thing is a lot better than getting a bass that can barely do 1 thing...

And if I wanted that sound from a Fenfer, it'd be a jazz. And that's a stretch!
I said I wanted a low down SOUND. Not noise.

 

[8mmOD]

How about 28hz?

www.bassonsound.com

I'll leave it up to others to point out any shortcomings they think these cabs might have, I am just letting you know they go lowwwwww.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Carvin BRX12 does 30hz. The 410 does 26hz.

Not flat. Not even -10dB. Lying about your specs isn't smart when you use off the shelf drivers and anyone with a box program can catch you at it. Carvin uses Eminence Deltalites, and that level of performance isn't possible.