Markbass Megathread PART 3

[Brad Johnson]

Would someone just write this in big bold letters at the head
of every amp thread please. Flat doesn't mean anything if you
can't get "your" sound out of the amp. I always audition amps
trying to get my sound out of it. That might be with the amp
flat or with knobs tweaked.

I think it's important IF you want the sound of what you plug in to come through vs. having it overly masked by the amp in question.

If that's not your sound, I agree... flat is largely inconsequential. OTOH if you have basses that sound great without any help from the amp or in my case play a variety of great sounding basses, it's a royal pain in the ass to have an amp that makes your bass sound like your playing through that amp vs. just sounding like your bass.

Not being forced to tweak just to get a decent base tone IMO IME is always preferable for a gigging musician whose time is important.

 

[emjazz]

I think it's important IF you want the sound of what you plug in to come through vs. having it overly masked by the amp in question.

If that's not your sound, I agree... flat is largely inconsequential. OTOH if you have basses that sound great without any help from the amp or in my case play a variety of great sounding basses, it's a royal pain in the ass to have an amp that makes your bass sound like your playing through that amp vs. just sounding like your bass.

Not being forced to tweak just to get a decent base tone IMO IME is always preferable for a gigging musician whose time is important.

+1!

 

[Tony G]

I know it's only a 12", but how do you find the low end within its size/power class?

Sorry, I haven't had time to answer this today. Honestly, it is the only 1x12 cab I have real experience with, so I'm not the best to answer it. Vic seemed to have a good answer for you, though I'm not really sure I hear the gap he mentioned. Anyways, I've just been so happy with this cab as my dedicated rehearsal/small jam cab that I haven't bothered looking else where. It is small, punchy, and loud, with good low end for a cab so small. I do touch the lows up a bit with my LMII, but not much. I usually keep my LMII's eq flat with the filters off when using my UL410, just to give you an idea.

 

[Ed Goode]

I completely agree, Brad. One of the prime considerations with the MB stuff is that I could get my bass(es) sound out of the amp without any fiddling. My two prime gigging basses both sound the same, on purpose, so that I can switch during the gig and not have to make a bunch of adjustments.

In my limited use of the amp, it appears that MarkBass allows my basses to sound like my basses, which is exactly what I was looking for in a smaller package. I also agree that not everyone has this as a goal .... but the LMII certainly provides some very viable options, as well ....

 

[KJung]

I think it's important IF you want the sound of what you plug in to come through vs. having it overly masked by the amp in question.

If that's not your sound, I agree... flat is largely inconsequential. OTOH if you have basses that sound great without any help from the amp or in my case play a variety of great sounding basses, it's a royal pain in the ass to have an amp that makes your bass sound like your playing through that amp vs. just sounding like your bass.

Not being forced to tweak just to get a decent base tone IMO IME is always preferable for a gigging musician whose time is important.

Kinda....

I always kind of chuckle at this discussion. Of course, most of us that are interested in this topic have very nicely voiced and quality instruments, so we can take that out of the equation.

It seems to me, the definition of 'flat, uncolored, and transparent' is an amp that the player thinks sounds good and delivers the tone he/she is trying to achieve. I've heard AI gear, EA gear, Epi gear, Bergantino gear, Acme, MB gear (and even Schroeder and Bag End) all called 'transparent, uncolored, and 'letting the sound of your bass shine through' Since I've owned or own most of this stuff, I can say that ALL of this gear has its own specific voice, and I agree, it's easier to use gear that fits your tone goal without a lot of tweeking. Also, all this gear interacts, so that one amp/cab combination can sound amazing, relatively balanced, etc., and swap one of the components, and things an totally change!

However, don't fool yourself into thinking you have found 'truly flat and transparent'. What you've found is a rig that makes your basses sound like you think they should. If that takes a significant cut at 1K so be it!

I'm with B String on this one.... get all these terms out of your mind and find something that sounds good to you without a lot of monkeying around.

I too find the LMII to sound perfect with my basses with the amp set virtually flat..... but it ain't 'flat'! It makes my basses sound like they do going through a nice preamp into a board expertly EQ'd and compressed by an engineer. The slight upper mid rise of the LMII voicing, the very open treble response, and the slightly attenuated low end with a little bit of warmth (I assume slight distortion) in the mid mids does a great job of mimicing a nicely preamped and EQ'd bass in a studio to my ear. It doesn't sound at all like a bass directly into a mixing board with no EQ... thank god!

 

[Tony G]

I couldn't agree more. Every piece of gear I've played through sounds different than the other. If that is the case, how can I determine which one is "flat" sounding? The only thing I have to go on is whether that particular piece of gear sounds good to me, in my situation.

 

[Vic]

I always kind of chuckle at this discussion...

I'm with B String on this one.... get all these terms out of your mind and find something that sounds good to you without a lot of monkeying around.

+1

And we always come around to this when we have these debates over terminology, which is exactly why I try to avoid or VERY carefully use certain terms that tend to cause this kind of derailing type of thing, which is what I was saying from the beginning. Talk about irony!

 

[KJung]

+1

And we always come around to this when we have these debates over terminology, which is exactly why I try to avoid or VERY carefully use certain terms that tend to cause this kind of derailing type of thing, which is what I was saying from the beginning. Talk about irony!

+1... just don't want those reading this thread and all the MB gushing to think that we've all found the holy grail or something. It's just a nice head (... the LMII) that delivers a tone that many pop/funk/jazz players really will like. It's not 'magic', it's not 'flat', it's not 'hi fi', and it's no more 'transparent' than many other fine heads out there. However, for a certain tone goal that many of us have (clean, crisp, tight, but not sterile or clinical), it really is pretty cool!!!!

 

[Brad Johnson]

Kinda....

I always kind of chuckle at this discussion. Of course, most of us that are interested in this topic have very nicely voiced and quality instruments, so we can take that out of the equation.

It seems to me, the definition of 'flat, uncolored, and transparent' is an amp that the player thinks sounds good and delivers the tone he/she is trying to achieve. I've heard AI gear, EA gear, Epi gear, Bergantino gear, Acme, MB gear (and even Schroeder and Bag End) all called 'transparent, uncolored, and 'letting the sound of your bass shine through' Since I've owned or own most of this stuff, I can say that ALL of this gear has its own specific voice, and I agree, it's easier to use gear that fits your tone goal without a lot of tweeking. Also, all this gear interacts, so that one amp/cab combination can sound amazing, relatively balanced, etc., and swap one of the components, and things an totally change!

And that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about on a personal level. Because I didn't say any of that.

Did I?


Here's my simple point, Ken. I know what my basses sound like. I know what they sound like running through a quality console. I know what coloration sounds like and yes, every commercially available amp will have some but IME IMO it's the degree that's important. I know that if I plug into something like an Eden WT800 (no offense to any Eden users) they no longer sound like that. When I plug into my Markbass they do.

At this point I have no idea whether or not you understand what I've been getting at.

However, don't fool yourself into thinking you have found 'truly flat and transparent'. What you've found is a rig that makes your basses sound like you think they should. If that takes a significant cut at 1K so be it!

I'm not fooling myself about anything. And if the rig takes a significant cut just to allow my bass to sound like it sounds, what will it take for the rest of my basses to do the same? Will that same cut be the same "fix"? My experience tells me "no", especially that Trace head I mentioned.

I'm with B String on this one.... get all these terms out of your mind and find something that sounds good to you without a lot of monkeying around.

No offense, Ken, but what the heck do you think I've been saying?


The EQ KNOB, SLIDERS, WHATEVER, set FLAT, meaning the settings are FLAT for those who still get confused by all this, is the SIMPLEST way to set an amp. Isn't it? There's no monkeying around involved.

I too find the LMII to sound perfect with my basses with the amp set virtually flat..... but it ain't 'flat'! It makes my basses sound like they do going through a nice preamp into a board expertly EQ'd and compressed by an engineer. The slight upper mid rise of the LMII voicing, the very open treble response, and the slightly attenuated low end with a little bit of warmth (I assume slight distortion) in the mid mids does a great job of mimicing a nicely preamped and EQ'd bass in a studio to my ear. It doesn't sound at all like a bass directly into a mixing board with no EQ... thank god!

I honestly don't know why you're fixated on "flat" when I've explained that I am not talking about flat per the readings of a scope. I'm talking about the SETTINGS of the CONTROLS on the AMP. I honestly don't know anyone who talks about their amp being set flat per a signal generator through a scope, so I don't know why that keeps coming up. besides, we've been talking about "flat EQ", a specific, not just "flat".

If this doesn't clear this up, I give up. For the people who get it, thanks. Either way, it's cool.

 

[figuredbass]

I totally feel you on this. Thing is, the UL110 really does do a great job at the low end, even tho the UL112 should sound a bit deeper and bigger, but the question is, where do you want that seamlessness?

To me, filling in that gap in the middle is more important than adding low end, especially since that can sometimes be partially achieved through cab placement.

I'd say it's time to maybe exercise the MF return policy, get one of each, and return the one that doesn't do it. These are both fantastic cabs, and yeah, especially paired, they'll definitely raise eyebrows, but if it was me, I'd do it all over again the same way. Start with the 110, and then add the 112 if you need it.

Also, on the "112 issue" I'm not an expert, but I don't think it's a crossover thing. I think the same thing would happen no matter how much overlap there was between the high and low pass filters. I think it just has to do with the size stepping like you said.

Good points - thanks. I'll consider doing the "modular" thing as well. Decisions, decisions...

 

[figuredbass]

Sorry, I haven't had time to answer this today. Honestly, it is the only 1x12 cab I have real experience with, so I'm not the best to answer it. Vic seemed to have a good answer for you, though I'm not really sure I hear the gap he mentioned. Anyways, I've just been so happy with this cab as my dedicated rehearsal/small jam cab that I haven't bothered looking else where. It is small, punchy, and loud, with good low end for a cab so small. I do touch the lows up a bit with my LMII, but not much. I usually keep my LMII's eq flat with the filters off when using my UL410, just to give you an idea.

I appreciate this perspective since I also run the LMII's EQ basically flat with the filters off through my UL310. The fact that you don't have to really pump a high amount of low end compensation into the UL112 is what I was hoping to hear.

 

[Vic]

I appreciate this perspective since I also run the LMII's EQ basically flat with the filters off through my UL310. The fact that you don't have to really pump a high amount of low end compensation into the UL112 is what I was hoping to hear.

I can confirm that as well. Just this last Friday I was using my UL110/112 stack with my LMII and while I did add just a little VPF (which I normally do anyway), I didn't need to touch the EQ at all.

 

[figuredbass]

Cool - good to know. Thanks.

 

[Tony G]

I don't really play with the filters at all, but I'm thinking I'm going to start experimenting with them a bit. Maybe a touch of VPF as Vic does to start with. I mean, I paid for all that eq and the filters, right? It seems like a shame not to use them.

 

[Vic]

I don't really play with the filters at all, but I'm thinking I'm going to start experimenting with them a bit. Maybe a touch of VPF as Vic does to start with. I mean, I paid for all that eq and the filters, right? It seems like a shame not to use them.

IMHO, never more than 9-10:00 on the VPF, but YMMV. While I do like the way it sweetens the tone (keep in mind I'm also an Eden Time Traveler fan), since it is a "scoop", I use with caution in a mix of course.

 

[ga_edwards]

My thoughts on this 'flat' discussion.

People are right that flat is not a transparent sound, but it is the neutral sound of any amp. If the amp doesn't sound close to the sound you're after when your trying it out, it's not the amp for you.
If you need to really crank the eq to the extremes to get 'your' sound, you need to look for something else.

The LMII sounded really good flat in the shop when I coupled it to the right cab for my sound. I tried out a few different MB cabs and settled on the one that sounded right to me.

However I never run the eq and filters completely flat. I use flat as a starting/reference point and tweak the eq for the room. But the tweaks tend to be minor, just enough to hear working, I never need to really crank it. I honestly can't understand how people can leave the eq in one set position and expect it to sound the same in a variety of venues.

 

[Brad Johnson]

My thoughts on this 'flat' discussion.

People are right that flat is not a transparent sound, but it is the neutral sound of any amp. If the amp doesn't sound close to the sound you're after when your trying it out, it's not the amp for you.
If you need to really crank the eq to the extremes to get 'your' sound, you need to look for something else.

Exactly! Unless of course you don't mind spending time hunting for your tone.

The LMII sounded really good flat in the shop when I coupled it to the right cab for my sound. I tried out a few different MB cabs and settled on the one that sounded right to me.

However I never run the eq and filters completely flat. I use flat as a starting/reference point and tweak the eq for the room. But the tweaks tend to be minor, just enough to hear working, I never need to really crank it. I honestly can't understand how people can leave the eq in one set position and expect it to sound the same in a variety of venues.

If you're ever in Maryland by all means come to one (or more) of my non-private gigs and I'll be more than happy to show you.


I did it for more than ten years with my AMP BH420 amps, did the same with the Thunderfunk TFB420 and the LMII works the same. The most I used the Timbre control was to show people how it works

It's pretty simple. While most of my basses have preamps, the funny thing is that I usually don't have to tweak the preamp either. I start out by sending a pretty full (or "hot") signal to the amp. I set the amp's gains to the max I'll need. I typically leave my bass' volume control wide open. By and large I can adjust my volume and tone with my hands (not that I want to open that can of worms again but it's important). I can go from bright to thuddy, loud to soft without touching a knob or switch. My overall touch is very even so I don't have to worry about peaky output. It all plays a role in getting the results I do.

 

[Altitude]

It's pretty simple. While most of my basses have preamps, the funny thing is that I usually don't have to tweak the preamp either. I start out by sending a pretty full (or "hot") signal to the amp. I typically leave my bass' volume control wide open. By and large I can adjust my volume and tone with my hands (not that I want to open that can of worms again but it's important). I can go from bright to thuddy, loud to soft without touching a knob or switch.

+1. By leaving most of the tonal control to my hands, I've got fewer knobs and tweaks to worry about when I should be thinking about the music.

 

[KJung]

+1. By leaving most of the tonal control to my hands, I've got fewer knobs and tweaks to worry about when I should be thinking about the music.

+1... I don't think I've touched a knob or control on a gig after the band has started in 20 years! Maybe, just maybe a touch of bass boost on certain basses when slapping, but that's about it!

 

[Brad Johnson]

Would "neutral EQ" be a better term?