Market input for D.I. outputs

[micguy]

I've done a lot of FOH work, and the fact that Di's usually don't have level trims on them has never been an issue. The sound board has input trims on every channel.

There are a lot of posts on this forum where people talk about this or that pedal "needing" a DI output. If you put a DI output on every pedal on one of my bards, it's gonna be a much bigger board, with no increase in functionality. A simple DI works just fine - my only beef being that they usually have a high step down ratio (usually 12:1) - which is appropriate if you want to plug a bass into it, but after a pedalboard, as long as there's at least one pedal on, You don't need that much of a step down - something closer to 1:1 works well, and gives you a bigger signal to work with at the board.

So, the DI's that I have on my pedalboards are ones I built, and they use a different ratio (in this case, 4:1). So, when I go in to a venue, and plug my bass into the board, it's about 10dB hotter than a usual DI. Does anyone ever complain that the level from my pedalboard is too hot? Nope - they might notice, but it's never an issue.

Don't add complication where it isn't needed - a simple DI works just fine.

 

[silky smoove]

Based on my vote I'm clearly in the minority, but for what it's worth; If the 1/4" out is part of the signal path, and not just a split that duplicates the input, then I'd like an independent level control for that. I've been in a multitude of situations, mostly on IEM gigs, where having an independent XLR level control is absolutely critical. Of the two I would prioritize the XLR's level control for easier access and would move the 1/4" to an internal trim pot.

 

[Sushi Box FX]

Ideal for me would be a separate XLR level volume knob on the exterior of the pedal but I assume that’s not an option.

That's exactly how I envisioned it too. But an external knob might be easier if space allows.

It looks like I can make an external knob fit, so it would be external independent knob for each. I was thinking about making them the little mini knob things so they weren't obtrusive and it would reduce the chance of them being accidentally bumped. Maybe I'll add "separate knobs on the face of the pedal" as another option. I'm still playing with the layout, I'm nowhere near a final decision.

The exact feedback I received that made me start thinking about this was that someone was playing a gig with my pedal and the FOH guy had him sound check through the D.I. first and set levels, then afterward the player wanted to dial in his monito sound from the 1/4" output and was scolded for messing with the level of the FOH signal. Could have just been a soundguy not familiar with how it worked, or the player not communicating what his stage setup was going to look like ahead of time, but either way it got me started thinking about it.

 

[Wfrance3]

Mann.... You did open a can of worms asking something like this on TB! I sincerely appreciate you valuing our input enough to do so...

1. Keep it as-is. Don't change anything, leave it as a shared control.

No, being able to change each independently would be unique, and would solve problems, as in XLR out to the board needs a little more umph, but your local monitor, say, an amp for example, is needing to be dialed back..

2. Set the XLR as a fixed-level output (like Noble). The Level knob would continue to affect the 1/4" output, and the Gain would obviously affect both, but the XLR output would be a set level independent of the 1/4" output.

This option is something that would (and does) work. It would be fine.

3. Add an internal trimpot for the XLR output and leave the Level knob for the 1/4" output. XLR volume would still be variable and not fixed, but it would be a set-it-and-forget-it thing that you dial in once when you're setting up your rig and never touch unless you're changing things up.

Personally I don't like internal trim pots because you forget you have them, or remember you have them, but also know they require the pedal to be removed to get to them or some such shenanigan. I think having separate pots for each; the XLR and the 1/4", would be the best.

4. Add an internal trimpot for the 1/4" output and leave the Level knob for the XLR output. Same as above but swapping which control goes inside the box and which one is outside the box.

Same answer as 3...

I like the idea of a simple DI Box. 9v. powered would be great so that a powered circuit can be employed in order to allow the gain to be +/- without the limitations of non-powered passive. Downstream, the amp has eq on it, so no need to have redundant eq on the pedal. Same for XLR, there is eq at the mixing desk...
If anything, add HPF. Could even be internal like the SFX Thumpinator, for example...

 

[Sushi Box FX]

I like the idea of a simple DI Box. 9v. powered would be great so that a powered circuit can be employed in order to allow the gain to be +/- without the limitations of non-powered passive. Downstream, the amp has eq on it, so no need to have redundant eq on the pedal. Same for XLR, there is eq at the mixing desk...
If anything, add HPF. Could even be internal like the SFX Thumpinator, for example...

Have you been peeking at my designs???

My current layout has separate knobs, both on top, for XLR and 1/4". Gain affects both channels obviously because it's still just a single preamp. I also squeezed in a fixed frequency HPF switch for those that are into that sort of thing.

I'll need to build a mockup to see if I like it aesthetically, but so far I like it functionally. It's the closest I can think of to "make everyone happy at the same time with a single pedal"

 

[DaveParker39]

The exact feedback I received that made me start thinking about this was that someone was playing a gig with my pedal and the FOH guy had him sound check through the D.I. first and set levels, then afterward the player wanted to dial in his monito sound from the 1/4" output and was scolded for messing with the level of the FOH signal. Could have just been a soundguy not familiar with how it worked, or the player not communicating what his stage setup was going to look like ahead of time, but either way it got me started thinking about it.

That's why I'm feeling the fixed pad on the XLR. On or off. I wish my main amp had one (I plug an XLR pad into the amp's XLR direct out). A knob would be annoying though, particularly for a sound guy. I can turn up myself and not impact FOH.

 

[InkCow]

It looks like I can make an external knob fit, so it would be external independent knob for each. I was thinking about making them the little mini knob things so they weren't obtrusive and it would reduce the chance of them being accidentally bumped. Maybe I'll add "separate knobs on the face of the pedal" as another option. I'm still playing with the layout, I'm nowhere near a final decision.

The exact feedback I received that made me start thinking about this was that someone was playing a gig with my pedal and the FOH guy had him sound check through the D.I. first and set levels, then afterward the player wanted to dial in his monito sound from the 1/4" output and was scolded for messing with the level of the FOH signal. Could have just been a soundguy not familiar with how it worked, or the player not communicating what his stage setup was going to look like ahead of time, but either way it got me started thinking about it.

One feature I really liked on the EHX Battalion was the mini knob that independently controlled the DI volume:

I really have grown to miss it now that I use a NUX MLD: the DI is insanely hot and the level can only be adjusted by connecting it to a computer.

 

[Sushi Box FX]

One feature I really liked on the EHX Battalion was the mini knob that independently controlled the DI volume:
View attachment 5175675
I really have grown to miss it now that I use a NUX MLD: the DI is insanely hot and the level can only be adjusted by connecting it to a computer.

Oh interesting, I didn't even think about trying to fit a mini knob on the side of the enclosure, I like that. I wonder if I could make that work, need to do some measurements. I was able to fit it on top of the pedal, but it ruins the aesthetic it already had because I can't fit the knob up with the rest of the controls. Being all alone isn't as big a deal if it's all alone on the side right by the XLR jack.

 

[superheavyfunk]

Oh interesting, I didn't even think about trying to fit a mini knob on the side of the enclosure, I like that.

Whaa? I said that very thing two pages in hahah. Also, consider the exposed trimpot thing… could be a way to heal two birds with one hand, with regards to both space and aesthetics.

 

[Parzival]

Small knob by the DI XLR is a great idea.

 

[Sushi Box FX]

Whaa? I said that very thing two pages in hahah. Also, consider the exposed trimpot thing… could be a way to heal two birds with one hand, with regards to both space and aesthetics.

Must have missed that one, sorry about that, trying my best to keep up with everything. I saw mention of small pot on top, but I don't love the idea. I don't personally like the aesthetics of exposed trimpots as it's a hole in the enclosure with nothing in it. If the hole is going to be there I would rather have a mini pot that can be adjusted by hand without a screwdriver.

 

[ImTheOnlyOne]

Must have missed that one, sorry about that, trying my best to keep up with everything. I saw mention of small pot on top, but I don't love the idea. I don't personally like the aesthetics of exposed trimpots as it's a hole in the enclosure with nothing in it. If the hole is going to be there I would rather have a mini pot that can be adjusted by hand without a screwdriver.

You could imagine less convenient or appropriate designs as a mental exercise... then steer clear of those.

Screw driver required to open the battery bay or access operator controls. (Understood tube pedals don't operate on batteries)

Tiny trim pots requiring a magnifying tool to read and uncommonly small tools to turn. (Trim pots are for set-and-forget calibration settings, not stage settings)

Control knobs, spaced tightly, having reflective indicators difficult to read in poor or bright lighting conditions and offering no tactile feedback.
(Build so you could set it with your eyes shut)

Then, following all the minimalist and reductionist advice, introduce your latest pedal, the "Chew Toy".
Market it to vocalists.

 

[nealw]

I can’t see a downside to an internal trimpot for xlr. Make default mic-level and as it’s internal, it can’t be moved accidentally and no one is likely to change it during a gig unless there’s a damn good reason.

 

[gtirard]

I can’t see a downside to an internal trimpot for xlr. Make default mic-level and as it’s internal, it can’t be moved accidentally and no one is likely to change it during a gig unless there’s a damn good reason.

The downside is if the sound guy during sound check asks you to send him a less hot signal, you have to unscrew the pedal

 

[Hasty]

The downside is if the sound guy during sound check asks you to send him a less hot signal, you have to unscrew the pedal

If it's too hot he's too old?

 

[OldShark]

By the way, do both of Venus X's level controls also affect the (non-dry) 1/4" out and the XLR? At least for the boost channel, I would think enhancing the gain during a set would also mean you would need to adapt both outputs with the boost level...
(Nathan, sorry for possibly opening another can of worms...)

 

[stefaniw80401]

The fact that this thread even exists exposes the problem that I've had with the Finally DI box ever since I got it. Maybe I just don't know how to use my Finally box. Perhaps someone can enlighten me?

Problem: the 1/4" pre out is way too hot. It clips the preamp on my head. It's hot enough to drive a power amp. IMO, the 1/4" pre out needs to be "instrument level". And I don't need the dry pass switch. It makes no sense to me.

I don't want to drive a power amp via the FX loop return, nor do I want to bypass the preamp/tonestack stage of my bass amp head. I just want variable tubey gain/saturation at instrument level. The Finally box must have a hot opamp stage after the tube -- I don't think we need that do we?

Given the above use case, which of your pedals should I be using if not Finally? That's the pedal I want. I will trade my Finally DI pedal for that box if it exists. My head already has a nice variable DI with pre/post option.

That said, I guess I'd vote for the Finally DI upgrade with 2 independent level controls...and remove the dry pass switch to create space for that 2nd level knob.

 

[Sushi Box FX]

The fact that this thread even exists exposes the problem that I've had with the Finally DI box ever since I got it. Maybe I just don't know how to use my Finally box. Perhaps someone can enlighten me?

Problem: the 1/4" pre out is way too hot. It clips the preamp on my head. It's hot enough to drive a power amp. IMO, the 1/4" pre out needs to be "instrument level". And I don't need the dry pass switch. It makes no sense to me.

I don't want to drive a power amp via the FX loop return, nor do I want to bypass the preamp/tonestack stage of my bass amp head. I just want variable tubey gain/saturation at instrument level. The Finally box must have a hot opamp stage after the tube -- I don't think we need that do we?

Given the above use case, which of your pedals should I be using if not Finally? That's the pedal I want. I will trade my Finally DI pedal for that box if it exists. My head already has a nice variable DI with pre/post option.

That said, I guess I'd vote for the Finally DI upgrade with 2 independent level controls...and remove the dry pass switch to create space for that 2nd level knob.

The 1/4" output being too hot is why the internal attenuator trimpot was added, but the catch there is that reducing the overall level of the 1/4" output also reduces the level of the XLR output.

Finally does not have an op-amp stage anywhere in it, it is a 100% tube signal path.

The intention of the dry pass switch was for those that don't want a preamp affected output to send to their amp and would rather have a parallel dry signal, which is common in commercially available direct boxes. I understand not everyone needs it, but I have received feedback from many players that do. I did ask for input when Finally was first designed and aimed to please as many people as I could with the current design.

I will have prototype boards for the revised Finally mid-October, and they will have a separate output control for the 1/4" (on the face of the pedal) and the XLR (on the side by the jack), as well as a switchable HPF, as that's a common request I've been getting for a while now. The dry pass switch will be staying.

If you're not using the D.I. of Finally and you just want a clean tube sound, I would strongly recommend that you check out More.

Alternatively you could adjust the internal attenuation trimpot to reduce the overall level since you aren't using the XLR output, or you could swap for a tube with lower gain, a 12AU7 would likely suit your needs.

 

[Charlie Tuna]

The 1/4" output being too hot is why the internal attenuator trimpot was added, but the catch there is that reducing the overall level of the 1/4" output also reduces the level of the XLR output.

Finally does not have an op-amp stage anywhere in it, it is a 100% tube signal path.

The intention of the dry pass switch was for those that don't want a preamp affected output to send to their amp and would rather have a parallel dry signal, which is common in commercially available direct boxes. I understand not everyone needs it, but I have received feedback from many players that do. I did ask for input when Finally was first designed and aimed to please as many people as I could with the current design.

I will have prototype boards for the revised Finally mid-October, and they will have a separate output control for the 1/4" (on the face of the pedal) and the XLR (on the side by the jack), as well as a switchable HPF, as that's a common request I've been getting for a while now. The dry pass switch will be staying.

If you're not using the D.I. of Finally and you just want a clean tube sound, I would strongly recommend that you check out More.

Alternatively you could adjust the internal attenuation trimpot to reduce the overall level since you aren't using the XLR output, or you could swap for a tube with lower gain, a 12AU7 would likely suit your needs.

Hi Nathan, Do you mind letting us know the HPF frequency and slope? Thank you.

And I've really been enjoying the HWUA as of late. A lot of beef and variety in that pedal.

 

[Sushi Box FX]

Hi Nathan, Do you mind letting us know the HPF frequency and slope? Thank you.

And I've really been enjoying the HWUA as of late. A lot of beef and variety in that pedal.

-6dB per octave below 90Hz, similar to how Noble does their rolloff.