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Martial Arts anyone?
- Thread starter SundanceChile
- Start date
Not as such.
I took up Judo as a competitive sport and had no intention of using it to fight in the street. Any utility in self defence was a welcome side effect.
I don't currently train in it, but if I was put in a situation where I had a job like yours, I'd pick Judo and boxing.
OK. My bad. Apologies. Thats the norm I've found.
And +1 on the any utility comment. So true.
I did Judo for sport too. I sucked at it, kept getting up to try to throw him again. Came away with a good hip throw, and shoulder wheel throw for rush attacks (did that once in a BJJ comp the poor guy rushed me I did that he flew into the next ring, ooops!)
Karate to learn discipline (Sensei was ex-military and drilled us like it) and a traditional "one hit kill" art. The kata applications to ground fighting were mere flukes I discovered once I hit the mats.
The Muay Thai and BJJ was learnt for fighting. For fighting in a tight club environment I found I mainly relied on Shotokan footwork to penetrate past their haymakers, Muay Thai scalpels (elbows) to strike, and BJJ to control and remove them, often whilst moving them away from livid ladies belting them with their heels
Or I got clouted upside the head by fighters! Then I could rely on my BJJ only, or the 'roided bouncers who trained "Nah-Sti" - often hitting ar stomping me as much as him pulling him off me. Ouch.
15 year old to be exact, i just dont want to fix my sig because it will be reduced to one line
im about 5"6, the guy i was fighting was a bit taller than me maybe 5"8 or 9
You believe too much in your own opinion to be objective.Aye, there's the rub. It's very easy to make a lot of claims as a keyboard warrior but very difficult to back it up.
The thing is, your lack of experience with WC in the last 20 years is the key here -- WC may have been okay back then -- maybe -- but outside of TKD and "kid's karate" it's one of the worst progenitors of McDojos ever. Most teachers and high level practitioners would get pounded by an amateur boxer.
Also, I'd like to thank Dan Molina for the video clip. A chunner steps up, gets beat down, and carried out. Great application of the centreline theory which is the heart of Wing Chun
EDIT: It sounds like I'm being more sarcastic than I am. It WAS a good application of centreline theory. The only problem is that centreline theory sucks.
You've misinterpreted the fact that centerline theory does not work against certain opponents as meaning that it doesn't work at all.
It's long been acknowledged that there are weaknesses but they also exist in any system in which the teacher is remiss.
Wing chun is not the most perfect system available but it is definitely valid and your examples only show that accomplished fighters from other styles are capable of beating them.
Now back to you, keyboard warrior.
I think this type of argument is really the crux of the whole argument.
For some people, if any particular martial art isn't "the best for street fighting" then it's worthless. Some will even go so far as to revoke it's status as 'martial art' completely.
The irony is, it's exactly the opposite of this type of thinking that led to the development of the MMAs that all these guys laud in the first place. All MMA is, is taking a little bit of what DOES work from any martial art available. Dismissing any particular one completely is just closed-minded and contrary to the philosophy of almost every MMA I've ever investigated.
Is the current state of MMA the pinnacle of fighting styles? That is to say, there is NO room for improvement? it's PERFECT? If not, them perhaps a dismissive attitude isn't the wisest?
Those are two throws I never found particularly useful, mostly because they're easy to anticipate and difficult to work into a combination. Most of my wins were with throws like O soto gari, tai otoshi or ura nage (I can't remember the translations off-hand) or from pinning them on the ground.
It's funny, in a real situation (or at least those that I've encountered), it's the easier opportunities that present theirselves.
All this said.... the thing I think is the worst for all MA is all the UFC type competitions. Sure I watch them. But, most people don't realize it's not a Karate guy VS Grappler. What it really is, is full contact kickboxing mixed with grappleing..... regardless of who studied what.
Most of what really works in a good martial arts or the street for that matter, is simply not allowed in these competitions.
They keep keep taking what really works (in other words what someone would have to do against one of those beasts to take him out) so no one gets hurt real bad.
Now those competitions are more about brute strength. If they guys aren't in the same weight range no way the smaller guy is going to win.
I've met some guys who trained in MMA, but didn't go the full on training for competition, (lift the weights, take the steroids, and full contact spar.) They just got into it because they watched some UFC or something and think it would be good for actual self defense.
Pretty much what they knew was usually a joke because they knew a little about this or that but not enough about it to really make it work.
Don't kid yourself UFC type stuff is just as much a sport as TKD point matches, and will get you hurt in a fight just as fast. Sure it's waaaay more brutal, but in the real world your opponent isn't obeying any rules. When you train to fight with rules it's no good for a real fight.
Most of what really works in a good martial arts or the street for that matter, is simply not allowed in these competitions.
They keep keep taking what really works (in other words what someone would have to do against one of those beasts to take him out) so no one gets hurt real bad.
Now those competitions are more about brute strength. If they guys aren't in the same weight range no way the smaller guy is going to win.
I've met some guys who trained in MMA, but didn't go the full on training for competition, (lift the weights, take the steroids, and full contact spar.) They just got into it because they watched some UFC or something and think it would be good for actual self defense.
Pretty much what they knew was usually a joke because they knew a little about this or that but not enough about it to really make it work.
Don't kid yourself UFC type stuff is just as much a sport as TKD point matches, and will get you hurt in a fight just as fast. Sure it's waaaay more brutal, but in the real world your opponent isn't obeying any rules. When you train to fight with rules it's no good for a real fight.
A judoka IS used to fighting. They get thrown around on a regular basis. They are used to pain and are used to GIVING it, too.
Time for a history lesson:
After the Edo period, Jiu Jitsu stopped being practiced full on. No reason, really. Then you got your moves like "stepping on the back of the knee and ripping his eyes out through his nose." Nobody knew whether it worked or not, since nobody actually tried it.
The Police still learned Jiu Jitsu, though. They had to learn something. Aikido wasn't available yet (not that it's any better) and a striking art doesn't go well with police officers.
Fast forward to Jigoro Kano. He says "Hey, how about I take this move where you rip the guys arm off, and instead make it so that you do a similar motion, but he just lands on his back..."
Bam. Judo was born. The great thing about Judo? You could practice on someone who was FULLY RESISTING for hours and still walk home. No broken bones or joints, unless there was a freak accident.
Competition time. Who has the better mojo? Jiu Jitsu or Judo? There was a tournament held, and without any question Judo one. A judoka might not know how to decapitate someone, but they can win a fight because that's what they do: practice fighting.
ric1312, MMA is a sport, UFC is a sport, we know. Of course it can get you hurt in a fight if you try something stupid like armbarring a guy who's standing over you, because he's just going to slam your head on the concrete. That said, early UFCs with the (ridiculously loose) rules they had back then were very much a good comparison of style versus style and what really works and doesn't in a practical application...and the Kung Fu guys got their asses kicked. Also, the chumps you met who "train MMA" and "don't spar" are idiots, but you find idiots in every walk of life. For that matter, I slightly resent the "take the steroids" comment, but I'm assuming that's a joke.
Also, every combat sport (kickboxing, thai boxing, wrestling, judo, sport jiu-jitsu, bjj, western boxing, etc.) has weight classes and it's a pretty ignorant thing to say it's more about brute strength than skill. If this was true, Tim Sylvia wouldn't have gotten his head punched in by Randy Couture and grappling wouldn't have any place in the sport at all for that matter. Royce Gracie would've had his head caved in years ago if that was true.
Akami, centreline theory does not work against trained opponents. It has been shown many times. Now, if you want to train to fight untrained people, that's fine -- but guess what? Thai/wrestling/judo/kyokushin works against trained opponents AND people who don't know what the hell they're doing.
bburk, what I meant by the "it's dancing" comment was to dispel any ideas he might have about the combat effectiveness of capoeira. Capoeira is 99% dance, 1% martial. However, trying to pull off kicks while spinning on one hand is going to get your dreadlocks kicked in mighty fast. My dismissive attitude towards WC is one made after reading about first hand experiences in today's WC dojos, seeing videos of their practice methods, etc. etc. because I (quite ashamedly now) actually looked into it seriously once. Know what I found? A bunch of skinny twits in silk pajamas playing slapsies.
Also, every combat sport (kickboxing, thai boxing, wrestling, judo, sport jiu-jitsu, bjj, western boxing, etc.) has weight classes and it's a pretty ignorant thing to say it's more about brute strength than skill. If this was true, Tim Sylvia wouldn't have gotten his head punched in by Randy Couture and grappling wouldn't have any place in the sport at all for that matter. Royce Gracie would've had his head caved in years ago if that was true.
Akami, centreline theory does not work against trained opponents. It has been shown many times. Now, if you want to train to fight untrained people, that's fine -- but guess what? Thai/wrestling/judo/kyokushin works against trained opponents AND people who don't know what the hell they're doing.
bburk, what I meant by the "it's dancing" comment was to dispel any ideas he might have about the combat effectiveness of capoeira. Capoeira is 99% dance, 1% martial. However, trying to pull off kicks while spinning on one hand is going to get your dreadlocks kicked in mighty fast. My dismissive attitude towards WC is one made after reading about first hand experiences in today's WC dojos, seeing videos of their practice methods, etc. etc. because I (quite ashamedly now) actually looked into it seriously once. Know what I found? A bunch of skinny twits in silk pajamas playing slapsies.
Unfortunately it's a problem we see in every part of life nowadays. If someone can argue a bass isn't as good as another then it should no longer be made for example.
At the time that these fighting systems were formulated, their founders had a certain perspective which led them to come to the best conclusions they had the ability to apply.
Few had the internet or forums, but rather learned what worked for them.
Wing chun was originated by a small woman who found a way of handling attackers much stronger than her and is still a very valid style for someone who properly learns to apply it; unfortunately, it's not unbeatable.
I never could make tai otoshi work for me but like you, osoto gari and matwork are the two things that have benefited me the most, not to mention ukemi!dlloyd said:
All the most basic of judo skills.
It's all in the combinations, getting your oponent to lean in the correct direction. Tai otoshi is also a great counter to uchi mata... very impressive if you get it right.
By and large though, I sucked at competition
Yeah, that's what I was told, but I was very poor at judo with the exception of ukemi!It's all in the combinations, getting your oponent to lean in the correct direction. Tai otoshi is also a great counter to uchi mata... very impressive if you get it right.
By and large though, I sucked at competition
I guess I could say tai otoshi is useless, since I never could do it, but it just brings up one very important point overlooked in most of this thread; just because you can't make it work doesn't mean that the person who understands what to do can't.
Fair enough, I don't want to come off sounding like I think I'll bust out the berimbau and start doing handstands the next time I get into a bar-fight. But still, maybe there's a useful little gem buried in there somewhere. That's all I wanted to point out.
You're right. It's much better to train in a style that has proven weaknesses and does NOTHING to address them than train in a style that is constantly evolving.
