Indeed. I still think they're at a disadvantage in a street fight vs someone who is used to fighting though.
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Martial Arts anyone?
- Thread starter SundanceChile
- Start date
Indeed. I still think they're at a disadvantage in a street fight vs someone who is used to fighting though.
The thing is with most moves you can't spar full contact or the sparring will last about a couple of minutes, then someone would have something broken. In that instance what you do is get a couple of higher ranking belts and do full speed drills like I mentioned.
One person is the attacker and the other the defender. The attacker attacks once and the defender has to do something anything, if he doesn't or gets hit or whatever that round is over and either it's the other guys turn or another try.
The defender capitulates and gives appropriate reactions to hits. That is hit in the groin and you keel over a bit. Moves that involve joint locks can be used more forcefully to force the attacker into the appropriate position.
Sparring, for standup martial arts, basically amounts to light to heavy contact kickboxing and is not an end all for defense. You really can't use anything that would work really good in stand up because your parnter WOULD get hurt.
Keep in mind I'm not talking tkd sport rules here.
For instance, most of my favorite moves in kenpo involve stepping on the back of the opponents knee, taking it all the way to the ground (slamming it in fact) then from behind grabbing the chin and breaking the kneck.
While I can slip behind someone and just tag the back of their knee. If I was to follow through in a sparring situation it's not likely I'd be able to control my opponents fall enough to keep him from hurting his kneecap, and then slamming his own face into the floor.
so, although the above cop out is used by lots of instrutors, in some cases it is valid.
But, this is where full speed one step sparring comes in. For students with more rank/control, they can pair off and do continuous.
All that said..... what I've noticed is a lot of people have never been in a fight where there is real potential to be hurt and have fantasies or misconceptions on how it is.
Most people think they are going to pop some guy once in the groin or throat or whatever, and he's going to keel over.
They don't account for adrenaline reactions or just plain being willing to really go full out. And most can't even identify how fights start so that they can either avoid them or just know to be ready. (Though I prefer premptive myself)
Judoka is plural
In the average street fight, you don't see a whole lot of decent punches, most are fairly messy grappling bouts.
Not around here. It's either beer bottle broken on head or punch thrown that starts it, and theres no grappling involved after that.
My main point, and problem with ALL forms of learned fighting or martial art is:
THEY ONLY DEAL WITH CONFLICT ONCE A FIGHT STARTS AND THE FISTS ARE FLYING
And this is a fantastic discussion. Or it could be, if people could refrain from the insults.
And thats BS. Martial arts do not teach those qualities, unless you choose to train with that mindset and the less people believing it does, the better.
You're not talking street fights where either both people are trained, or the stakes are high, are you??
But my main problem with the MA is that:
My main point, and problem with ALL forms of learned fighting or martial art is:
THEY ONLY DEAL WITH CONFLICT ONCE A FIGHT STARTS AND THE FISTS ARE FLYING.
So it's useless in AVOIDING CONFLICT
Rant over. I'm sitting back to watch the flames again.
THEY ONLY DEAL WITH CONFLICT ONCE A FIGHT STARTS AND THE FISTS ARE FLYING
And this is a fantastic discussion. Or it could be, if people could refrain from the insults.
Your instructor has simply not taught you to fully commit to stepping into him. Either that, or you did not fully commit to the punch. The reverse punch is one of the fastest punches to rely on, especially against high kicks!
+10What a pissing contest this thread has turned into. We should do a TB destruction derby n put you all in the arena, free for all so to speak
+20
Learn it for a year, get into a fight, then come back and tell us how hard it was for him to hit you
And thats BS. Martial arts do not teach those qualities, unless you choose to train with that mindset and the less people believing it does, the better.
No but I have defended myself with a hip throw in a carpark and we both went to hospital
+100. But fighting still means you can adapt kata to it if you can draw a benefit from it. Granted, the kata we see today is BS most of the time.
Judoka also learn submissions at higher levels, no need to be so nasty
KA means "practitioner" I thought - KARATEKA is one who trains karate. JUDOKA one who trains Judo. At least, thats why Sensei Kanazawa (10th Dan SKIA) told us...
Really?dlloyd said:
Really?
You're not talking street fights where either both people are trained, or the stakes are high, are you??
But my main problem with the MA is that:
My main point, and problem with ALL forms of learned fighting or martial art is:
THEY ONLY DEAL WITH CONFLICT ONCE A FIGHT STARTS AND THE FISTS ARE FLYING.
So it's useless in AVOIDING CONFLICT
Rant over. I'm sitting back to watch the flames again.
America (and I say this without prejudice, just out of experience) is the place where I saw the worst wussy fights ever.
Learn it for a year, get into a fight, then come back and tell us how hard it was for him to hit you
And thats BS. Martial arts do not teach those qualities, unless you choose to train with that mindset and the less people believing it does, the better.
I dont need to learn it, i already make it hard enough for someone to hit me. Martial arts should teach those qualities because thats what they were usually developed for.
Really?
You're not talking street fights where either both people are trained, or the stakes are high, are you??
No.
It's used in both singular and plural.
One judoka, two judoka, three judoka... etc.
Depth_Charge said:Really?
The handful that I've been involved in have. There's a disagreement that I'm unable to talk my way out of... Someone throws a punch and I'll take them to the ground... probably not an accurate representation, I'll agree.
I've lost track of who this was asked of, but I've never been in a well-matched fight. In every case, drunkeness has been the main reason the fight broke out in the first place.
Ah. OK. So it's not always plural then?
Cmon, put em up
Ah yes, the grapplers "wear the first one to get in" rule. This is why smart people spend a lifetime studying grappling AND a "one hit one kill" art
Ah, OK. The fights I've had in bars, on streets etc were either kid stuff too, or whilst under the employ of the sex industry - often involving the removal of unwanted elements, sometimes that meant tearing people like bikies off of strippers, and a lot of people in those environments are woman haters who have at least learned enough to try to be violent...
Most, I tore off cleanly then conflict resolved out of clubs without further physical incident. My worst was a karateka I rolled down the stairs with (equivalent of two flights of stairs). I wore maybe 20-30 elbows to the head neck shoulder and back before he went out (I wasn't counting, believe me!)...and it's the only time I had to take time off working!
Ah. OK. So it's not always plural then?
Cmon, put em up
Yeah, yeah... you got me. I was lazy in my reply to Morf and should have said it can be singular or plural.
Ah yes, the grapplers "wear the first one to get in" rule. This is why smart people spend a lifetime studying grappling AND a "one hit one kill" art
Yes, I agree.
I'd say that, in general, this sort of fight rarely happens to the average person and most are confined to "kid stuff". I've had more than my fair share from working bars, and judo has always been sufficient for me to look after myself (at least until the police arrived).
Ah OK. So generally speaking you and many others in this discussion have not chosen to uptake any of the arts, martial, fighting, or pretend to really deal with fight situations as such? More just to delay problems long enough for assistance to arrive?
OK. That puts things into better perspective for me.
I'm in the "learned to use a skill" bucket. I only retain whats worth retaining - like a knee high kick, a stepping reverse or cross punch, a few standing chokes and grapples, one or two good throws and a very nasty Liverpool kiss (headbutt).
I'll reserve any further comments based on my real world experiences then, since most of the time I spent in the Martial Arts was just challenging myself to make a thousand ineffective moves effective in a mutually competitive environment, while continually proving the effectiveness of the most basic fighting techniques I learned as a white belt in any art.
And if you want to choose good arts, choose the ones where the whites belt syllabus is devestating. In Karate as a white belt, you'll learn a kata probably HEIAN SHODAN or something similar, some basic punches and kicks, and thats it. Maybe if you're lucky by Black Belt, they tell you why.
But In BJJ for example a white belt learns how to take people down, break arms, and choke you out! Then they get better at it and add more to the arsenal.
Think that through some....
No, it's not. It's dancing. About the same effectiveness in combat if you were "breakdance-fighting," ala Zoolander.
We've been up and down BJJ before, we all agree it's good.
Aye, there's the rub. It's very easy to make a lot of claims as a keyboard warrior but very difficult to back it up.
The thing is, your lack of experience with WC in the last 20 years is the key here -- WC may have been okay back then -- maybe -- but outside of TKD and "kid's karate" it's one of the worst progenitors of McDojos ever. Most teachers and high level practitioners would get pounded by an amateur boxer.
Also, I'd like to thank Dan Molina for the video clip. A chunner steps up, gets beat down, and carried out. Great application of the centreline theory which is the heart of Wing Chun
EDIT: It sounds like I'm being more sarcastic than I am. It WAS a good application of centreline theory. The only problem is that centreline theory sucks.
I actually did, and it helped a lot.
Remember that its just a demonstration... the demonstration consists of mostly the self defense technique, example someone holds you form behind, someone grabs your shirt etc, it was probably acted too. me and my friends tried jumping my instructor for fun, street style, and trust me, i never knew what happened, i just saw my self on the ground with my friend next to me in an arm lock.
in this martial art theres a mix of lots of stuff, from joint locks, to pressure points, to punches, to kicks, and stuff like that, scratching someones eyes and kicking them in the groin are taught too. They also teach you how to break fall you you dont get hurt when you fall on the ground, there are ground techniques too.
