Double Bass MBOL?

[bassfacer22]

Rick one more for you.. haha.. listen to this amazing sound.. haha

His lower bass sounds good but listen to the G-string quack he gets that annoying twang from the Piezo pickup G-string nightmare..

 

[Chris Symer]

Hi Chris, always 'educational' to see your thoughtful comments.

First, I certainly do respect Brian's musicianship in much the same way as I respect Jaco's. I do not, however, have any desire to sound like either one. It may be sacrilege, but neither has a sound that I find particularly pleasing (or that I care to listen to for an extended period of time).

Re: your "My bass, but from what vantage point?" I'd like to stick my tongue in my cheek and ask "My bass but in which decade".

There are plenty of folks here on the DB side that play only GUT strings and (generally) take their sound and their inspiration from some of the giants from the 30's, 40's, or 50's. Just different strokes, as

Here is CM with a sound that 'for me' is perfect.



Peace

I have played in the KPLU (now KNKX) studio several times with several different people for these little live concerts. When I was there with Bill Anschell's trio the guys doing the sound remembered me from a previous visit and commented on my bass sound being boomy. They proceeded to put the RE20 about 1 inch out from my bass's f hole for sound check. That may work better for live sound, but in this case the mic is going to the board for broadcast. As soon as they left the room I moved it so it was about a foot out from the bridge.
We played a bit and when they came back in they said "yea, the bass sounds great!". Then one of them noticed where the mic was and said "Oh, the mic got moved. Let me put it back for you". The next few minutes were great. I keep asking them how the sound was, they keep saying it was great and then keep wanting to put the mic back on the f hole which brings me to ask "how was the sound?" and around we went.
McBride's sound is beautiful IMO and under good conditions it is reproduced quite well. There are plenty of videos available (as posted previously) where his sound is far from ideal, I would even call it pretty bad. The fact that he still manges to make incredible music under those conditions is just another reason to admire him as far as I am concerned. Large venues, hurried sound checks and sound engineers that are mixing multiple bands in a day are par for the course for bigger events with little to no time to fuss with the bass sound.

 

[Don Kasper]

I have played in the KPLU (now KNKX) studio several times with several different people for these little live concerts. When I was there with Bill Anschell's trio the guys doing the sound remembered me from a previous visit and commented on my bass sound being boomy. They proceeded to put the RE20 about 1 inch out from my bass's f hole for sound check. That may work better for live sound, but in this case the mic is going to the board for broadcast. As soon as they left the room I moved it so it was about a foot out from the bridge.
We played a bit and when they came back in they said "yea, the bass sounds great!". Then one of them noticed where the mic was and said "Oh, the mic got moved. Let me put it back for you". The next few minutes were great. I keep asking them how the sound was, they keep saying it was great and then keep wanting to put the mic back on the f hole which brings me to ask "how was the sound?" and around we went.
McBride's sound is beautiful IMO and under good conditions it is reproduced quite well. There are plenty of videos available (as posted previously) where his sound is far from ideal, I would even call it pretty bad. The fact that he still manges to make incredible music under those conditions is just another reason to admire him as far as I am concerned. Large venues, hurried sound checks and sound engineers that are mixing multiple bands in a day are par for the course for bigger events with little to no time to fuss with the bass sound.

I think those of us who have spent a considerable portion of our lives in a room, playing a double bass, understand an appreciate the need for some "air & space" necessary for a double bass note to blossom. Putting a mic 1" from the f-hole (for recording), seems to be capturing only the developing note and so, captures only a portion of the sound, before it is fully formed.
Good for you, Chris, for taking the initiative and making the recording sound mo' better, even if the Engineer's FeeFees were hurt.
FYI - I am not an Audio Engineer, or a Physicist, but I have spent some time, in a room, playing a double bass.

 

[MR PC]

His lower bass sounds good but listen to the G-string quack he gets that annoying twang from the Piezo pickup G-string nightmare..

He probably sounds like that more often than not when playing festivals. Everybody does. That's where the trademark poopie eating grin comes in handy, every time.. Total pro! I loved watching him play next to Orsted..Orsted was chill, and Christian was really sweating trying to cut the Dane. One of the best CB performances I've ever seen!

 

[Jay Corwin]

He probably sounds like that more often than not when playing festivals. Everybody does. That's where the trademark poopie eating grin comes in handy, every time.. Total pro! I loved watching him play next to Orsted..Orsted was chill, and Christian was really sweating trying to cut the Dane. One of the best CB performances I've ever seen!

Pick any great bass player of the last 50 years, then find a live clip of them at one of these festivals with some crappy backline and piezo....tonally they often sound like complete garbage.

 

[MR PC]

Ughh aint it the truth...Ray Brown sounded like do doo in the house the last time I heard him, he was using some POS Barcus Berry he was endorsing at the time..'90's...I got up close and he sounded incredible once you heard his actual bass..

 

[bigshiny]

I would venture to say that the improvements made in the last decade in the amplification of the upright bass have been quite amazing. They keep pushing the envelope ( pun intended) further. The amount of transducers in production alone is staggering. Preamps also.

 

[bassfacer22]

I would venture to say that the improvements made in the last decade in the amplification of the upright bass have been quite amazing. They keep pushing the envelope ( pun intended) further. The amount of transducers in production alone is staggering. Preamps also.

meanwhile, Grammy Award winning bassists still can't rid themselves of the piezo quack or terrible sound from sound engineers... hehe

and still countless discussions on which pickup/amp to buy...

(and thank you to the mods who delete/locked my other post... I Guess I could have asked the proper way.. but it's solved now. ha.)

 

[bigshiny]

In a perfect world we would all be using mics that could work at any stage volume with no bleed. Sure it would be great to sound like your in the studio, but live, at any volume. Any genre. Any venue. Doesn't matter if your a Grammy winner or some guy down the street. A transducer is going to be a compromise in the replication of the sound of an upright bass. Even close mic'ing an upright (inches away) does not represent the actual sound of an upright. But.... Use what you got and do the best you can.

 

[bassfacer22]

I know, I'm having a good laugh that even at the highest level of Music and when you have tons of money and a "name",

there is still just "use what you got" and do the best you can.

I'm just saying you'd think Grammy award winning musicians could have more say or be able to have the top equipment- which in most cases, they do, but there is still those "gigs"..with house equipment..

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Rick one more for you.. haha.. listen to this amazing sound.. haha

His lower bass sounds good but listen to the G-string quack he gets that annoying twang from the Piezo pickup G-string nightmare..

I think he sounds fine there, all things considered. One thing that tempers that recording is the fact that the audio is coming through the camera mic from some distance away, and there's basically not much there below about 250hz on any instrument in that recording. I'll bet that in person, that bass actually sounded much better, along with the piano and sax (which sounds like an alto kazoo on this video). But I agree that he's a total pro - get the sound the best you can, then focus on making the best music you can.

When Mr. McBride played at my school, I offered him a choice of basses so he wouldn't have to unpack his travel bass if he preferred any of them. The first bass I offered him was "Ginger", my plywood office bass, because it was nearby and closest to the big band rehearsal. As he was playing the first few notes on it, I told him I had a carved version of the same bass at home that I would be happy to bring to him later in the day if he liked. After playing for about 30 seconds, he just smiled and said "thanks, but I like this one just fine". He then proceeded to sound like the voice of god on that bass and my amp during the evening concert. Total pro.

 

[bigshiny]

I totally agree with you Chris. A recording of a live performance on a phone is not a representation of what the original live audio sounded like. Just my .02

 

[Ric Vice]

I know, I'm having a good laugh that even at the highest level of Music and when you have tons of money and a "name",

there is still just "use what you got" and do the best you can.

I'm just saying you'd think Grammy award winning musicians could have more say or be able to have the top equipment- which in most cases, they do, but there is still those "gigs"..with house equipment..

That's what touring musicians get used to. They only bring their instruments on the road if that. Airline travel with a bass, is next to impossible these day's . There is evidently a list that players of Christian McBride's
caliber use to aquire loaner instruments while they are on tour.

Ric

 

[Pat Harris]

Just read the thread, and I'm likely in the minority, but I scrapped the MBOL philosophy a long while ago. Don't get me wrong, I love the sound of my bass, it's my musical voice, but I ditched the MBOL idea in favor of the "Best usable live tone possible." I don't so much need my tone on the bandstand as much as I need a tone/sound that works seamlessly with whatever musical situation I'm in.

I play in a variety of settings, and each one requires something different. I can't just railroad my sound into every mix. With my tango group, I can almost always use just a DPA 4099, in a lot of jazz settings I rely heavily on my Full Circle through an AI Ten2, and in more of the songwriter and louder club/theater shows, I will sometimes employ both the pickup and the mic (if the stage volume is low enough), but I'll often send two pickup channels to the FOH, a dry one where I high pass pretty heavily (but the FOH can add lows if needed), and a wet one where I send a full-range signal with a compression ratio of about 3:1.

My goal is getting the bass to sound great within the context of the whole group. The sound that I get while practicing at home alone isn't always the tone that works the best in the context of a mix. I'll always EQ or compress (never anything crazy) to get the best possible sound out front. To me, that's more important than maintaining the pure integrity of my own personal sound.

 

[Jay Corwin]

Just read the thread, and I'm likely in the minority, but I scrapped the MBOL philosophy a long while ago. Don't get me wrong, I love the sound of my bass, it's my musical voice, but I ditched the MBOL idea in favor of the "Best usable live tone possible." I don't so much need my tone on the bandstand as much as I need a tone/sound that works seamlessly with whatever musical situation I'm in.

I play in a variety of settings, and each one requires something different. I can't just railroad my sound into every mix. With my tango group, I can almost always use just a DPA 4099, in a lot of jazz settings I rely heavily on my Full Circle through an AI Ten2, and in more of the songwriter and louder club/theater shows, I will sometimes employ both the pickup and the mic (if the stage volume is low enough), but I'll often send two pickup channels to the FOH, a dry one where I high pass pretty heavily (but the FOH can add lows if needed), and a wet one where I send a full-range signal with a compression ratio of about 3:1.

My goal is getting the bass to sound great within the context of the whole group. The sound that I get while practicing at home alone isn't always the tone that works the best in the context of a mix. I'll always EQ or compress (never anything crazy) to get the best possible sound out front. To me, that's more important than maintaining the pure integrity of my own personal sound.

You can put me in this camp as well.

 

[bassfacer22]

I think he sounds fine there, all things considered. One thing that tempers that recording is the fact that the audio is coming through the camera mic from some distance away, and there's basically not much there below about 250hz on any instrument in tha...

Cool story. Great pic too.

That's a good insight into what Christian Mcbride had to play with that night.. but of course it's Chris F's Bass.. and I'm sure you have your bass setup really well.. I know CM could play on anything, but it sure would be funny to hear him fight a badly setup bass just to see what he would change and do to get around certain things..

By the way, I did a Master Class in Ohio with Christian Mcbride back in 2003? (damn, I've got no pictures to look cool though..) but he let me play his bass. It was not the school's bass, it was his bass. He talked about buying it, and what to look for in buying a bass etc.. I believe this one was from David Gage.. but anyway the top G-string was very low and easy to play fast on.. but the E-string was kinda high..

Oh and if your interested in what He said about buying a bass - He said to go to a shop of basses lined up, then go down the row of basses just only plucking the E-string and when you hear the bass that rumbles the room from just the E-string, start with that bass being your beginning shopping experience..

I've used this example before as it's one of my favorites.. haha.. But I guess they didn't offer this bassist and his "grammy" award winning singer some sound options.. I always get a kick out of this video..

Great player.. just hate the twangy twank.. this sound is my classic experience with all "Realist" pickups by the way.. well, and many other pickups too..

 

[rickwolff]

In a perfect world we would all be using mics that could work at any stage volume with no bleed. Sure it would be great to sound like your in the studio, but live, at any volume. Any genre. Any venue...........

Can I (or anyone) get MBOL all the time, any volume, any venue etc, etc.

NO, of course not.

Am I willing to quit striving to get that sound 'When I Can' -

Absolutely not.

This means I much prefer quieter, more intimate gigs. I'm willing and happy to take fewer gigs to get just the ones I enjoy.

Here is a clip from a Country Club trio gig. THIS is the sound I like to get. And yes, this is MBOL.

 

[bigshiny]

I totally agree with you Rickwolff.
It's a give and take. As volume increases your instruments real character seems to decrease. It's not that I just throw my hands up and say screw it. I look for ways to make it through the gig. Find that comfort zone as quickly as I can and play my bass instead of playing with knobs. I also will keep trying to have a good sound (or my idea of it) at all my gigs. It's a challenge. It's part of the gig. Nice clip!

 

[Ric Vice]

.......As volume increases your instruments real character seems to decrease. It's not that I just throw my hands up and say screw it. I look for ways to make it through the gig. Find that comfort zone as quickly as I can and play my bass instead of playing with knobs. I also will keep trying to have a good sound (or my idea of it) at all my gigs. It's a challenge. It's part of the gig. Nice clip!

I think that there's a "breakover" point where regardless of the amplifier and speaker the timbre and warmth of the instrument dissappears. Some cabinets sound better at higher volumes. Ultimately, you can't push a speaker your standing to the side of without feeding back. It's a compromise we all live with.

Ric

 

[rickwolff]

I think that there's a "breakover" point where regardless of the amplifier and speaker the timbre and warmth of the instrument dissappears. Some cabinets sound better at higher volumes. Ultimately, you can't push a
speaker your standing to the side of without feeding back.

Ric

Spot on, as usual, Ric. That's why I prefer a low stage-volume. If you have a PA or some FOH you can use that to 'disperse' your sound to the audience, rather that having to bring the stage volume up to the point where you lose all that acoustic goodness. That's also the main reason I prefer working without drummers (except those rare drummers that can play musically and soft AT THE SAME TIME.