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Double Bass MBOL?
- Thread starter bigshiny
- Start date
How about MBOPBSBTM? Too long? "My Bass Only Played By Someone Better Than Me." (or 'better than I if you want to be picky).
Re: Sitting or Standing. Sometimes I think the best position for me is Sitting (in the audience).
Re: Sitting or Standing. Sometimes I think the best position for me is Sitting (in the audience).
There is a widely accepted, sonic mathematical equation that every modern musician must take up arms against: E+I=V (Energy plus Intensity equals Volume). It's a lonely, unappreciated fight, but it's one that will some day, I feel, pay great rewards.
I played a very satisfying gig last Thursday that answered this question for me. It was a country club gig with a Kawai grand piano (unmiced - unamped), a QUIET drummer and a singer thru an on stage PA, and my bass amplified to perhaps 3X acoustic volume. I was blending my Ischell Mic, and my Lifeline through my Headway pre - to my GB Shuttle 3.0 and then to my MAS 26. I have NEVER gotten more beautiful sound. Granted, I think a lot is do to the fact the the CC had carpeted floors and acoustical tile ceiling so there was very little reverberence. (I once played a room that was so 'Live' that the bandleader said we could play the first set and then go out and listen to it).
Tonight I'm back to a louder, more high energy Jazz Venue (with an miced piano WITH stage monitors) and if I had my druthers I'd swap it for another Country Club gig.
Sorry for the upcoming Rants -
I work often at a club that has a beautiful stage, sound system and Yamaha grand piano - I play there sometimes as part of a duo (piano and bass), and sometimes as part of a quartet (+ drums and singer/guitarist). When I play duo there, I stand at the end of the piano, (lid open/no monitors, but the piano is "lightly" in the house.) Beautiful "acoustic" balance onstage - I play at a volume that (I believe) matches the acoustic output of the piano. I am like a pig in S***.
(We're background music for diners, BTW.)
Rant #1 - later on in the evening, the Sound Engineer will increase the piano volume in the house Mains AND activate the onstage monitors. WTH?! NOW, I'm being acoustically overwhelmed onstage, and reluctantly increase my stage volume, just to be heard onstage. (unhappy pig...)
Rant #2 - when playing there with the quartet, the Sound Engineer always asks me for a line-out of my amp, to send to the Mains?(+ monitors?!), which I, of course, always REFUSE. My thinking here is that because the Drums will NOT be mic'd, and if I am in the house, there will be an unrealistic mix out in the room, (and possibly onstage, as well, as SE will probably throw me into the monitors as well?! - just because he can...). So the mix, both in the house and onstage, will now be "bass heavy" and "drum light" - one of my least-favorite/MOST HATED mixes. Just to be clear - the drums/myself/piano are in a close grouping across the back of the stage - great visual and aural proximity to each other. The room is not big enough to warrant mic'ing everybody, especially the drums/bass, but I believe the SE feels professionally obligated to "mic anything that moves onstage". (or, "Why Does a Dog Lick It's Balls?"...)
Another factor is that this venue is a "Jazz" - based venue, and the genre doesn't benefit from over-amplification. IMFO. (Rant #3???).
I've suggested that ONLY the vocals be put thru the Mains and (possibly in a monitor for the drummer?), as we, the trio, play a variety of "non-ambiguous acoustic levels" (i.e., we'll "dig-in", when necessary), but this has not been embraced by the SE.
I've always believed that once you mic one instrument, then ALL instruments need to be mic'd (or vice versa) - but, I am (getting) OLD.
There. Oy Vey.
I need a nap.
Thanks.
I work often at a club that has a beautiful stage, sound system and Yamaha grand piano - I play there sometimes as part of a duo (piano and bass), and sometimes as part of a quartet (+ drums and singer/guitarist). When I play duo there, I stand at the end of the piano, (lid open/no monitors, but the piano is "lightly" in the house.) Beautiful "acoustic" balance onstage - I play at a volume that (I believe) matches the acoustic output of the piano. I am like a pig in S***.
(We're background music for diners, BTW.)
Rant #1 - later on in the evening, the Sound Engineer will increase the piano volume in the house Mains AND activate the onstage monitors. WTH?! NOW, I'm being acoustically overwhelmed onstage, and reluctantly increase my stage volume, just to be heard onstage. (unhappy pig...)
Rant #2 - when playing there with the quartet, the Sound Engineer always asks me for a line-out of my amp, to send to the Mains?(+ monitors?!), which I, of course, always REFUSE. My thinking here is that because the Drums will NOT be mic'd, and if I am in the house, there will be an unrealistic mix out in the room, (and possibly onstage, as well, as SE will probably throw me into the monitors as well?! - just because he can...). So the mix, both in the house and onstage, will now be "bass heavy" and "drum light" - one of my least-favorite/MOST HATED mixes. Just to be clear - the drums/myself/piano are in a close grouping across the back of the stage - great visual and aural proximity to each other. The room is not big enough to warrant mic'ing everybody, especially the drums/bass, but I believe the SE feels professionally obligated to "mic anything that moves onstage". (or, "Why Does a Dog Lick It's Balls?"...)
Another factor is that this venue is a "Jazz" - based venue, and the genre doesn't benefit from over-amplification. IMFO. (Rant #3???).
I've suggested that ONLY the vocals be put thru the Mains and (possibly in a monitor for the drummer?), as we, the trio, play a variety of "non-ambiguous acoustic levels" (i.e., we'll "dig-in", when necessary), but this has not been embraced by the SE.
I've always believed that once you mic one instrument, then ALL instruments need to be mic'd (or vice versa) - but, I am (getting) OLD.
There. Oy Vey.
I need a nap.
Thanks.
It's easy to see why there's not a lot of love for (most) sound engineers.
I recently read a tribute to Rudy Van Gelder, the iconic jazz sound engineer/recorder who died recently. The author said that, unlike many engineers, Rudy was not a 'Needle Nose' - always with his nose in the VU meters. Instead - he used his ears to create the sound he was after and made many of the most celebrated jazz albums in the process; including "acknowledged classics like Coltrane’s Invalid Link Removed, Davis’s Walkin', Herbie Hancock’s Maiden Voyage, Sonny Rollins’s Saxophone Colossus, and Horace Silver’s Song for My Father."
If the pianist feels the same way you do is it possible for the two of you to have a little 'come to jesus (pronounce Hay soos) about how YOU would like the amplification to be done? I suppose that's asking a lot.
It might an option for someone with a modicum of (some?) interpersonal social skills. Alas, that is not me.
HaySoos Kristo! - "It's. A. Duo.!!"
You're spot on regarding RVG - knowing how the music sounds, at ground zero, (sorry), is key to then attempting to reproduce or capture that sound.
Thanks for listening Rick. I'll let you get back to enjoying your newfound "...beautiful sound..." (snif, snif....)
There is nothing worse than a sound engineer having a preconceived idea of how your instrument should sound. Then they attempt to take your upright bass sound and turn it into what they think an upright should sound like. God only a knows what they are hearing in their head. It's like turning like trying to turn a Granny Smith apple into a red delicious apple. My .02 and my rant.
My turn to rant.
From my Thursday country club gig to last nights loud jazz club gig was going from the sublime to the ridiculous.
Thursday was an unamplified Kawai grand, and a VERY quiet drummer (love that kind). I was amplifying my carved bass thru my Ischell microphone with just a little Lifeline added in to give a little more heft on the low notes.
Last night, the first clue the band was TOO LOUD was that the drummer and the pianist can't here the piano. I mean, come on, the pianist is sitting AT the piano (a nice Yamaha Grand). He was in a tizzy until he could get more piano in the monitor.
The second clue (GET THIS), our drummer is now wearing EAR PLUGS. W.T.F.
If I could do so graciously I might drop out of this band, but it's just a once a month gig and other than the excessive volume I rather enjoy it. However, my good bass has been retired from that gig. I'm going to bring my plywood with the magnetic pickup and sound like a big GD precision.
So I have answered Bigshiny's original question (MBOL -but HOW loud) to my own satisfaction, and that is NOT AS LOUD AS LAST NIGHTS GIG. I think for me, if you need stage monitors for the band to hear the grand piano you already have too high a stage volume, at least for my taste.
From my Thursday country club gig to last nights loud jazz club gig was going from the sublime to the ridiculous.
Thursday was an unamplified Kawai grand, and a VERY quiet drummer (love that kind). I was amplifying my carved bass thru my Ischell microphone with just a little Lifeline added in to give a little more heft on the low notes.
Last night, the first clue the band was TOO LOUD was that the drummer and the pianist can't here the piano. I mean, come on, the pianist is sitting AT the piano (a nice Yamaha Grand). He was in a tizzy until he could get more piano in the monitor.
The second clue (GET THIS), our drummer is now wearing EAR PLUGS. W.T.F.
If I could do so graciously I might drop out of this band, but it's just a once a month gig and other than the excessive volume I rather enjoy it. However, my good bass has been retired from that gig. I'm going to bring my plywood with the magnetic pickup and sound like a big GD precision.
So I have answered Bigshiny's original question (MBOL -but HOW loud) to my own satisfaction, and that is NOT AS LOUD AS LAST NIGHTS GIG. I think for me, if you need stage monitors for the band to hear the grand piano you already have too high a stage volume, at least for my taste.
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Funny/Sad story -
Saw Rufus Reid with Jack DeJonnette's Special Edition many years ago. This was drums/bass/2 woodwinds - at a college auditorium.
I could see that RR had a (volume?) pedal near his feet, which was "unusual" at the time (Pre-Pedalboard Era for Bassists, esp. DB's!).
During one tune, it becomes obvious that there is going to be a bass solo - RR begins soloing, the AV Club Sound Engineer turns up the Mains...RR stops playing, glares at AVCSE, steps on volume pedal, (lowering the signal to the Mains)...AVCSE turns up the Mains, again...RR repeats the stop/glare/reduce - with a nastier glare.
This went on a bit longer until RR stops playing, and shouts to the AVCSE (paraphrasing) "DON'T TOUCH THE VOLUME OF THE BASS...JUST LEAVE IT ALONE!" (I suspect he muttered something inaudible that rhymes with 'other trucker'...) Problem Solved!
Also - at this concert, Jack D'J, got up from the drums, sat at the piano, (which had been unused up until this point), and played All The Things You Are, duo, with RR! Who Knew??
Now, back to the Rantz!
Saw Rufus Reid with Jack DeJonnette's Special Edition many years ago. This was drums/bass/2 woodwinds - at a college auditorium.
I could see that RR had a (volume?) pedal near his feet, which was "unusual" at the time (Pre-Pedalboard Era for Bassists, esp. DB's!).
During one tune, it becomes obvious that there is going to be a bass solo - RR begins soloing, the AV Club Sound Engineer turns up the Mains...RR stops playing, glares at AVCSE, steps on volume pedal, (lowering the signal to the Mains)...AVCSE turns up the Mains, again...RR repeats the stop/glare/reduce - with a nastier glare.
This went on a bit longer until RR stops playing, and shouts to the AVCSE (paraphrasing) "DON'T TOUCH THE VOLUME OF THE BASS...JUST LEAVE IT ALONE!" (I suspect he muttered something inaudible that rhymes with 'other trucker'...) Problem Solved!
Also - at this concert, Jack D'J, got up from the drums, sat at the piano, (which had been unused up until this point), and played All The Things You Are, duo, with RR! Who Knew??
Now, back to the Rantz!
This is exactly what I was trying to achieve when I started this thread. To have other upright players define what louder is in the MBOL. In this thread we have seen all kinds of p/u's , mics, contact mics. Amps, pre's. Big stages, small venues. We all share the same burden of trying to reproduce what we hear in our head, and try to reproduce it, many times changing and redefining what we want during the gig due to many reasons including volume of other players/rooms/monitors/ audience etc etc. I mean seriously guys, how many times have you gotten half way through a gig and said to yourself " Damit, I should have brought the other ( p/u, mic, cab, pre, head, changed the strings ....on and on". Dealing with these issues is something we will have to do as long as we play this instrument. And again, my opinion.
No kidding, two weeks ago at the St. Louis Art Fair, I got to the gig early to hear a friend play his Jean Auray bass, which has a lovely sound, his pickup is a Lieg (electrostatic) modeled after the original dual element
Schertler Stat B. The sound engineer took that lovely sound and made it sound exactly like a poorly built plywood bass. So even with a great bass and a great pickup, if the engineer doesen't have the skills, ears and
knowledge of what a bass is supposed to sound like. It will come out sounding awful.
Ric
Now if I could just find a sound engineer (or become one) who could make a cheap plywood bass sound like, say a Prescott, for example. But that would involve alchemy, I suppose (or at least some serious modelling and DSP). Now THERE'S an idea for someone: Ned Steinberger are you listening. A computer modelling/Digital signal processing program to take a 'stick bass' and make it sound like a Prescott (or other expensive bass of your choice).
The Gear Junkie strikes again - now venturing into the realm of 'fantasy gear'.
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