Double Bass MBOL?

[bigshiny]

I have seen this term used again and again in the double bass forums. But my question is, how loud? We have players on here that could get away without using any amplification at all in a very small intimate room to large stages/outdoor festivals and noisy bars. I'm sure ALL of us are trying very hard to keep our basses sounding like we think they should sound. God knows our bank accounts can show how much this means to us. My question is how loud are some us having to play to actually do the gig? The development of newer amps, cabs, preamps and transducers/ pickups have aloud us to push the envelope past what we thought was the threshold already. I know some of you have been around for quite sometime and to think back to what we were limited to using even 10 yrs ago is pretty amazing. So how quiet/small to loud/big of a stage are you playing this weekend? And what are you playing through to get yourself heard? Btw, there is is going to be a lot of jealousy towards to the quiet/ small rigs I'm sure.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Yesterday I had two extremes. In the morning I played a trio set for the students at my U with new piano faculty Gabe Evens and a really good student drummer. (sound file here: Dropbox - Jazz Area 9-2-16 ( Gabe Evens Trio).mp3 ..... this is a non-permanent link, but should be good for a while). The sound, while not exactly MBOL, is plenty good enough for me - Bass-->Fishman Full Circle-->PJB Flightcase. In this recording, the little recorder was sitting too close to the bass amp and too far from the piano, but I find this sound workable even though I didn't have my "A" bass, "A" amp, or high pass filter with me. It's what I would half ironically consider "close enough for jazz" in that it allows me to sound largely like my bass with a one cable setup, which allows me to focus on music making instead of knob-tweaking.



In the evening, I played an outdoor festival with a rock/jazz/indie group with a singer and 5 horns where the supplied backline was an Ampeg SVT with an 8x10 cabinet that I had to sit right in front of. On stage, every low E I played woofed like a rottweiler and the rest of the stage sound was snarky. I heard from others that out front sounded good. At those volumes, I was wishing I had brought my short scale fretless by the end of the night. Such is life.

 

[bigshiny]

This is exactly what I was talking about. I have to play at a large club downtown tonight where backline is provided. An ampeg SVT 410 HLF and I pick one of two amps that are on hand. I bring my pedal board with a Fdeck series 3 and a empress para eq, mute tuner blah blah blah. Same thing tomorrow except outdoor for a festival, no idea of backline yet. Then later this week some gigs I could do w/o an amp almost. I feel your pain Chris.

 

[bigshiny]

Well yesterday was a SVT-810E and an SVT4 PRO. They had the backline rig even with the front of the drum riser. Would have been a lot better if it was about 6 feet further back. The monitor guy walked up to me before I even got my bass onstage or the bag off of it and asked if he could put this huge foam covered dynamic mic under my bridge. I gave a crazy look. I said we will be playing way to loud for that to work. And besides I told him, aluminum just doesn't sound that good mic'd up. He looked at me really funny. I play an aluminum Pfretzschner from the 30's. Backline was ok. Those 810's always sound compressed and squishy. Great for electric.

 

[Ric Vice]

Well yesterday was a SVT-810E and an SVT4 PRO. They had the backline rig even with the front of the drum riser. Would have been a lot better if it was about 6 feet further back. The monitor guy walked up to me before I even got my bass onstage or the bag off of it and asked if he could put this huge foam covered dynamic mic under my bridge. I gave a crazy look. I said we will be playing way to loud for that to work. And besides I told him, aluminum just doesn't sound that good mic'd up. He looked at me really funny. I play an aluminum Pfretzschner from the 30's. Backline was ok. Those 810's always sound compressed and squishy. Great for electric.

Big Shiny,
Wow, we had a Conn aluminum bass when I was in highschool, I don't remember much about it, except it sounded like it had a built in reverb chamber. A urban legend tells the story that Conn's were built for the Interlochen Arts Academy.
The Students repurposed them as rafts to paddle around the lake. I've only played through a SVT-810 once with a Double Bass, they do sound kind of wierd. Unfortunately, there are only a handfull of sound tech's in St. Louis who know
how to mike a DB properly.

Ric

 

[james condino]

That Conn was made by AlCoA. After the business relationship between Joseph Maddy (at Interlochen) folded in late 1934. Conn eventually bought the remaining ALCoA basses and marketed them under their own brand name. They also imported Pfretzschner aluminum basses for a time. In some of the old advertisements, Conn showed images of Pfrezschner and AlCOA basses that were mislabled and both were marketed as Conns. Between the depression and the war, it took until the early '50s to sell the leftover AlCoAs. I just picked up one of those recently and hopefully I'll be able to keep it around for a few gigs and bring it down to ISB all polished up in the spring. The crusty crusty old crowd will love that....

I've been able to verify that story about floating the basses around the lake at Interlochen by several reliable sources and more than one faculty member, and there is one that now sits on the garden of a former faculty member as a bass scarecrow. I bought an alcoa from a violin shop in Florida maybe fifteen years ago that claimed they had it out in the surf and attached an outboard motor to it!

Back to the conversation- power is a never ending challenge. This weekend I played an acoustic set, a quiet restaurant with a small single cab, and then an outdoor brewery show with several cabs and my 900 watt head.... the truck was packed as I went from show to show and also changed shirts four times in a 9 hour period...

j.
www.condino.com
www.kaybassrepair.com

 

[Ric Vice]

That Conn was made by AlCoA. After the business relationship between Joseph Maddy (at Interlochen) folded in late 1934. Conn eventually bought the remaining ALCoA basses and marketed them under their own brand name. They also imported Pfretzschner aluminum basses for a time. In some of the old advrtisements, Conn showed images of Pfrezschner and AlCOA basses that were mislabled and both were marketed as Conns. Between the depression and the war, it took until the early '50s to sell the leftover AlCoAs. I just picked up one of those recently and hopefully I'll be able to keep it around for a few gigs and bring it down to ISB all polished up in the spring. The crusty crusty old crowd will love that....

I've been able to verify that story about floating the basses around the lake at Interlochen by several reliable sources and more than one faculty member, and there is one that now sits on the garden of a former faculty member as a bass scarecrow. I bought an alcoa from a violin shop in Florida maybe fifteen years ago that claimed they had it out in the surf and attached an outboard motor to it!

Back to the conversation- power is a never ending challenge. This weekend I played an acoustic set, a quiet restaurant with a small single cab, and then an outdoor brewery show with several cabs and my 900 watt head.... the truck was packed as I went from show to show and also changed shirts four times in a 9 hour period...

j.
www.condino.com
www.kaybassrepair.com

Well, now I finally have confirmation about the Interlochen Bass Boats. Apparently, there were also ALCoA Cello's that got a dip in the lake. Power isn't as big a deal for me now that I own a Monique M700. Forgive the pun but it
seems to cover all the basses, with the advantage of being able to trade out pre-amps, for whatever the situation requires. It's a expensive power amp, but I've yet to play a gig that it couldn't handle. Granted, I don't do a lot of
stadiums, but for out door festivals, it's all I'd ever need, provided there are mains.

Ric

 

[bigshiny]

I know what you mean Ric, I've gotten down to just the MAS cabs for all my gigs and switching out heads for different basses. Seems to work and simplify it somewhat.

 

[Jay Corwin]

I think if you need anything other than a minimal boost from your amplification, then MBOL is the dog chasing it's tale. This has been my experience anyway. For example - I used to play an AI contra, which sounded very natural with a pickup (and even better with a mic). I thought I had found my setup, and probably even commented as such. However once my volume needs grew, this combo was no longer useful. They aren't very good at all in club/PA situations.

I've gone in the opposite direction when it comes to amplification. My goal is good amplified tone, not MBOL. I don't mind it being colored at all, as long as the response of the speakers is still representative of the double bass. Let's face - this instrument was not made with amplification in mind, and piezos do not reproduce sound the same way the working components of the bass do. For my gigs, I would much rather have a pleasant bass tone that mixes well enough with the band even though it's not exactly what my bass sounds like.

I play through an mini Ampeg stack. I have two SVT210AV's cabinets, and a PF-350 head. On smallish gigs, or at places that I know have a good PA and soundguy - I bring one cabinet for the stage and DI the rest. For outdoor gigs I've been running both cabinets and trying to avoid the DI unless it's absolutely necessary. The sealed 2x10's respond very nicely to double bass.

 

[rickwolff]

I think if you need anything other than a minimal boost from your amplification, then MBOL is the dog chasing it's tale. This has been my experience anyway. For example - I used to play an AI contra, which sounded very natural with a pickup (and even better with a mic). I thought I had found my setup, and probably even commented as such. However once my volume needs grew, this combo was no longer useful. They aren't very good at all in club/PA situations.

I've gone in the opposite direction when it comes to amplification. My goal is good amplified tone, not MBOL. I don't mind it being colored at all, as long as the response of the speakers is still representative of the double bass. Let's face - this instrument was not made with amplification in mind, and piezos do not reproduce sound the same way the working components of the bass do. For my gigs, I would much rather have a pleasant bass tone that mixes well enough with the band even though it's not exactly what my bass sounds like.

I play through an mini Ampeg stack. I have two SVT210AV's cabinets, and a PF-350 head. On smallish gigs, or at places that I know have a good PA and soundguy - I bring one cabinet for the stage and DI the rest. For outdoor gigs I've been running both cabinets and trying to avoid the DI unless it's absolutely necessary. The sealed 2x10's respond very nicely to double bass.

+1 More wisdom from SevenYearsDown. I have found that, for me at least, it's two different things entirely: quiet intimate gigs where MBOL is still my goal (and one I've come VERY close to achieving with my Ischell Mic and either my Shuttle 8.0 or my MAS 26).

I now have two mics/pickups on each of my basses so I can choose one or blend thru the Headway depending on the needs of the gig. On my carved bass I have the Ischell and a Lifeline. The pickup only needs to come into play if things are getting loud.

When it's loud past a certain point (like on the jam session I play) I've just bring my plywood bass with a Krivo magnetic and a Lifeline OR the AKG contact mic. At the jam session volume (too loud) I can't hope to project to real woody, acoustic sound of my carved bass anyway so I've given up trying. As Jay says above: "My goal is good amplified tone, not MBOL. I don't mind it being colored at all, as long as the response of the speakers is still representative of the double bass."

All of that being said, my preference is for playing those quiet gigs where I CAN get MBOL, so those are the gigs I try to get.

 

[bigshiny]

I believe the theme here is us working within the parameters of the volume of the gig. Whether the variables that be the other players, the venue, or sometimes the genre of the music alone. The lower the volume the higher the expectations we can have for our sound, the higher the volume, well...We do what we can with what is handed to us.

 

[Ric Vice]

All good words from Bigshiny, Rick and Seven Years Down. Essentially, it kind of just boils down to what combination works best with your bass in a variety of venues. There is definitely a "break over point"
where the volume you have to play at changes your sound. One thing I do know is that a High Pass Fllter is a very useful tool in this instance.

Ric

 

[bigshiny]

And boy does a notch filter work wonders. I cannot count how many loud gigs I would have been up $... creek w/o a paddle with out one.

 

[Remyd]

When I was in the blues band, I totally abandoned the MBOL idea and went for a sound that resembles-a-double-bass-if-you-listen-hard. I think 500w into 2x 410 is beyond reasonable expectation of MBOL. Don't remember the head, but the cabs were Hartke. I eventually nailed down something that I liked (with a whole bunch of EQ etc), but it was nowhere near my actual fingers-on-the-wood tone.

 

[Josh Kneisel]

The whole MBOL thing is great in theory. Ive found in reality that I just want a good bass tone. I tend to run a Gage Lifeline through a SuperSymetry Compressor (Just enough comp to help me sit in the mix nice with a whole band) into a SansAmp and that works well enough for me with very minor adjustments needed depending on the room. I try to go for the MBOL thing, but as stated I feel like for larger gigs that goes straight out the window and I'm running my GK 700rb into my 6x10 Ampeg again.

 

[bigshiny]

Ah yes, I remember 10 yrs ago using an 1x18 and a 4x10. Both SWR. Man were they heavy. I think I was running a Sansamp rack mount and QSC PLX 3402. That was right before I switched to IEMs. Whew, things have changed and Ive gotten quite older. I did come back and use 3 or 4 different 4x10's.

 

[Ric Vice]

The whole MBOL thing is great in theory. Ive found in reality that I just want a good bass tone. I tend to run a Gage Lifeline through a SuperSymetry Compressor (Just enough comp to help me sit in the mix nice with a whole band) into a SansAmp and that works well enough for me with very minor adjustments needed depending on the room. I try to go for the MBOL thing, but as stated I feel like for larger gigs that goes straight out the window and I'm running my GK 700rb into my 6x10 Ampeg again.

There's definitely something gained by not letting notes on the Estring "bloom". In my particular case, I use a HPF and smaller cabinet to accomplish that, but with a larger cabinet like a 6x10 I could imagine that the compressor would help. Having mains to run into
is a bit of a mixed blessing, because if they are using big subs and runing them wide open, it can be a real challenge.


Ric

 

[Jon Mush]

I played with ears in a group for a couple of years, was great for hearing what a piezo sounded like-ugh-took a lot of work on the console to smooth it out and try to get it natural sounding. But it was worth it. I think keeping the on stage resonance down to a minimum helped the FOH guy a lot.

Played a bunch of bigger shows with those dudes in rinks and larger venues with the wall of subs and never really had any issues. Great sound crews though. They always seemed to dig the upright, and said it was easy to get a sound. I always send a pre-EQ direct line out of my pre to the house to give them a fighting shot for something natural-ish in the mix.

On stage without ears and an amp is usually a mercenary situation of trying to hear note quality vs. girthy feel. Even if I get close to a 'natural' sound on stage with an amp, my ability to intonate and hear myself well goes out the window when the drums and telecasters fire up. Then I find myself tweaking pots on the amp to get some more definition.

Using the MAS cabs has really allowed me to get more output and less feedback on the honky tonk shows, while letting me retain some of the upright character too. I do play a Chadwick though, and leave the travel brace in for the loudest stuff, it's a feedback killer! Kinda like two (or more) sound posts. That's definitely my secret weapon. (I'll leave it out if I can, but the minute things go sideways I pop it in.)

It may not be perfect acoustic bass tone, but I always get people commenting on the character of the upright sound versus the electric in the other bands on the bill--so it's not just a big fretless p-bass. The note envelope is still upright enough...

 

[bigshiny]

I usually used an amp onstage when I was running IEM's. Just to add a little resonance on stage. But I also ran an 31 band eq and a dbx compressor/limiter for my ears. I was slapping a lot back then. It really helped keep things in check. As far as the MAS cabs go. I myself have noticed that I don't have to notch filter hardly at all anymore compared to when I was using 4x10's. That's using both the 1x10sub and the 4x6 together. The notes stop and start so much faster. No overhang. And how true Ric, Subs are our best and worst friend. It's a love hate relationship. Just because someone can afford some audio gear doesn't mean that they know how to use it.

 

[MLysh]

I'm currently working with a new theory: MBOQ aka My Band, Only Quieter. Provides a great bass sound every time.