Mesa M6 Carbine Mega Thread part 3:

[Jim C]

Just a side note; I've been looking to try an M6/M9 for years thinking that with all the new featherweight amps, the resale value would drop.
It doesn't! I've only played one for a few minutes at a quiet volume when the first came out and it had the big amp feel.
The M6 used is more than alot of 500 and 800 watt heads new which makes me think that the quality and tone are just flat out worth it and I want one even more.

 

[Al Kraft]

The onboard compressor really has my interest. Being able to plug straight into the amp with no need for a compressor pedal would be a bonus for sure. But if the Carbine series is as quick and punchy as they say, is a compressor really necessary?

The compressor is exceptionally nice for an on-board unit and I suspect it is similar to (if not the same design as) the one on the old M-Pulse series heads. As you've already figured out, the M6 is a big hit and has no compressor, so it's easy to conclude that the M9 compressor might be more window dressing than essential for many players.

IME compressors have many uses from taming and smoothing dynamics to adding sustain and fattening tone a bit. For me compressors are more of an effect rather than a tool to correct a problem as I typically feel very comfortable keeping dynamics in check through attention to playing technique. For those who do a lot of slapping and popping a compressor can sometimes be useful (although that's not my style of playing). As a finger style player I like to use a little compression occasion strictly for tone shaping/voicing purposes. IME the compressor can help the punchy, highly dynamic, in your face Carbine take on a more fluid, slightly less dramatic, smoother feel. With some graphic EQ adjustments as well it rounds out a bit of the aggressive edge - that may or may not be appealing for death metal style players.

I hope that's helpful. Others may have a different take on it. IME players with different styles often describe the use for/value of compressors differently.

 

[_Some Dude]

Cool, thanks for the detailed response. The onboard compressor really has my interest. Being able to plug straight into the amp with no need for a compressor pedal would be a bonus for sure. But if the Carbine series is as quick and punchy as they say, is a compressor really necessary?

Right now I'm using a Peavey VB-2 and was/am using a D-180. I rotate amps in and out and sometimes try for a one-amp-fits-all-genres rig, but the death metal band is getting more serious and thought about getting a butt-kicking amp just for that band, and if it didn't work as well for my rock, and doom bands that would be ok too.

I use an M6 and occasionally put a compressor in the loop. I find it helps even out the string responses so that the D and G pop more and aren’t overpowered by the E and A strings. Makes playing fingerstyle a little easier and helps with slap.

I don’t like compression with a pick because it blunts the attack and those transients/dynamics are a big part of playing with a pick for me, so I don’t want to even that out.

In the end I’d suggest that whether or not to use a compressor will come down to personal style.

The drawback to an on-board compressor is that they lack the control of an outboard unit, so you’ll have limited ability to fine tune it to your playing. That really bothers some people, others don’t seem to mind.

 

[Jim C]

The compressor is exceptionally nice for an on-board unit and I suspect it is similar to (if not the same design as) the one on the old M-Pulse series heads. As you've already figured out, the M6 is a big hit and has no compressor, so it's easy to conclude that the M9 compressor might be more window dressing than essential for many players.

IME compressors have many uses from taming and smoothing dynamics to adding sustain and fattening tone a bit. For me compressors are more of an effect rather than a tool to correct a problem as I typically feel very comfortable keeping dynamics in check through attention to playing technique. For those who do a lot of slapping and popping a compressor can sometimes be useful (although that's not my style of playing). As a finger style player I like to use a little compression occasion strictly for tone shaping/voicing purposes. IME the compressor can help the punchy, highly dynamic, in your face Carbine take on a more fluid, slightly less dramatic, smoother feel. With some graphic EQ adjustments as well it rounds out a bit of the aggressive edge - that may or may not be appealing for death metal style players.

I hope that's helpful. Others may have a different take on it. IME players with different styles often describe the use for/value of compressors differently.

Al,
Do you favor the M9 because of the graphic, or are both pretty equal for your use?

 

[Al Kraft]

Al,
Do you favor the M9 because of the graphic, or are both pretty equal for your use?

I actually like both Jim and they are close to studio quality IMO, particularly for something you'd find on head. I'm not routinely a pedals guy (except for a HPF), so having some of these kinds of features is a nice bonus for me, especially when they're well done like on the M9.

I actually find the M9 graphic EQ quite nice for adjusting to room acoustics - Mesa gave us plenty of voicing control in the basic M6/M9 control set. That compressor does a wonderful job of helping smooth out some of that aggressiveness that the Carbine naturally has on those occasions when I want a little more polite sound backed-up by Carbine horsepower and clarity/articulation.

 

[_Some Dude]

I actually find the M9 graphic EQ quite nice for adjusting to room acoustics - Mesa gave us plenty of voicing control in the basic M6/M9 control set.

+1.

I have the graphic on my Strategy and use it the same way. I find it overkill for tone shaping but it’s great for dealing with problems (aka, boomy low end). That said, the Carbine doesn’t have the loose/boomy low end of the Strategy so I haven’t really missed not having a graphic EQ with this amp.

I’ve tried using the graphic to replicate the Darkglass high-mid boost, and it works to a degree, but the graphic doesn’t have the same center and Q so it’s not the same. On the plus side the Carbine works really well with Darkglass pedals, so if that’s the sound someone’s looking for...

 

[DJJazzV]

Just a side note; I've been looking to try an M6/M9 for years thinking that with all the new featherweight amps, the resale value would drop.
It doesn't! I've only played one for a few minutes at a quiet volume when the first came out and it had the big amp feel.
The M6 used is more than alot of 500 and 800 watt heads new which makes me think that the quality and tone are just flat out worth it and I want one even more.

I think it's an excellent amp. It's not heavy either. Light enough to keep in a 3 space rack bag. Great hybrid because it still has that tonal thickness. Kind of like what you feel using a poweramp like a Crest CA9. One preamp tube, but minimal, if any change, when swapping tubes. I run mine flat and get my main tone from my pedals, but the EQ on the M6 is simple and powerful. The Mid is Boost Only. That's important to know and use when needed.
It's a keeper. It's also incredibly loud.

 

[Jim C]

And you know that I like slam.
I still use your old SVP-CL pre once a week at rehearsal with a 1500 watt stupid heavy amp.

Didn't know about mid boost only; I usually boost but with this new to me Lakland, I need to pull some 300 Hz. -400 Hz. ganky woof sometimes.
OTOH, If an amp is that good, a little graphic or quasi. parametric pedal is not a deal killer for me.

 

[Al Kraft]

That unique "passive mid style" design description may be a touch misleading. I'm not 100% sure, but I think this circuit may be more of a hybrid of a passive mid (which would typically be cut only - you can't amplify/boost frequencies with a passive circuit) and some make-up gain along with that passive mid. This very type of of design is used on the Walkabout and the new WD-800. I find that you can attenuate and boost mid voicing with the control despite it being billed as "boost only".

 

[agedhorse]

The passive mid is "cut only", BUT by the use of make-up gain within the native voicing, it appears that the passive mid has both boost and cut. This circuit retains the natural asymmetry of the original legacy circuit, where part of the flavor comes from.

This is the kind of circuit that works differently than it initially appears.

 

[Jim C]

For the mids, would flat (no boost) be wth the mid control fully counter clockwise?

 

[Al Kraft]

For the mids, would flat (no boost) be wth the mid control fully counter clockwise?

I may be wrong Jim but to me it always sounded like it's somewhere between 10 and 2 o'clock depending on how I have the other EQ controls set. Interestingly enough, on the new WD-800 it sounds to me like it's sort of neutral in about that same range even though I'm positive Andy did some fine tuning on the legacy mid circuit to more seamlessly match it with the WD pre-amp design and more smoothly integrate it with the other WD EQ controls.

Hopefully someone else has a more precise answer, that you can find more useful.

 

[Jim C]

Maybe I have this totaly wrong but if it is boost only, wouldn't no boost be all the way to the left?
I get the make up gain thing which is cool.

 

[Al Kraft]

Maybe I have this totaly wrong but if it is boost only, wouldn't no boost be all the way to the left?
I get the make up gain thing which is cool.

I think they sort of worded it oddly in the manual which does say the control is boost only, but it also describes it as a passive control. As an engineer I can assure you it can't be 100% both at the same time. I believe that the filter itself is a passive design. However, when you add in a complementary make-up gain circuit you sort of change the landscape from the restrictions of passive controls (to attenuate only) to being able to use the a characteristics of a passive control, but having some straight gain on tap to make that effect seem like it can boost.

I'm not an amp designer but would expect you would select the passive filter characteristics you like and then position that (gain-wise) at the level in the signal path that allows you to move that "filter shaping/voicing" up or down relative to the incoming signal gain. Agedhorse is probably laughing his head off at that ham-handed explanation, but that's how I envision it anyway.

 

[agedhorse]

Flat voicing (relatively) is between 10:00 and 2:00 for most players.

It is not boost only, it's actually cut only plus some makeup gain. The circuit operates with some boost characteristics.

I will have to look at the manual, tomorrow, I hope the explanation is not misleading.

 

[DJJazzV]

And you know that I like slam.
I still use your old SVP-CL pre once a week at rehearsal with a 1500 watt stupid heavy amp.

Didn't know about mid boost only; I usually boost but with this new to me Lakland, I need to pull some 300 Hz. -400 Hz. ganky woof sometimes.
OTOH, If an amp is that good, a little graphic or quasi. parametric pedal is not a deal killer for me.

That's great. Glad one of my favorite preamps is still being used weekly. I gave up on carrying those big heavy poweramps a while ago. I know how you feel. The M6 would easily replace what you are using and keep the "slam". Saves a lot of space and weight. If you use the voicing on the SVP-CL, you can use the M6 preshape as well. If you still need more fine tuning, perhaps a simple and small MXR 6 band EQ (or another brand. Just an example). That can pull out some 400 Hz for you.
Wait to hear back from AgedHorse about the M6 mid. To me, it appears to be boost only, but I could be wrong. I keep it around 10 o'clock. It does have a center detent at noon, which I never understood why if it is boost only like the manual says. Subtle boost. Not harsh.

 

[Jim C]

"Passive only" and "boost only"; I'm still not sure how to understand this but I'm sure that it will be explained clearly; thanks for cheking in on this Andy.
Thought this might save a few minutes for anyone interested:

MID: This is the only passive style control in the string of rotary tone controls. This scheme was chosen for its inherently musical blend and for the way the passive style midrange control, with its wide spread and smooth taper, fills in the holes. Unlike the BASS, this control is a boost only, and while it can competently remove this broad spectrum of midrange from the mix, it cannot provide the extreme attenuation of an active style control. You will find, as we did, that this control works amazingly well for shaping the midrange frequencies with a natural earthiness and character that is a perfect counterpart to its neighbors. It is hard to find bad sounds with this more forgiving control as it seems to give you just enough and no more. For radical and specific scooping or boosting of the midrange frequencies for modern R&B and Funk styles, there is plenty of control that is infinitely more accurate to be found in the VOICE control. Because of this, we opted for the tried and true passive style midrange control that has been working great in all of our amplifiers for decades. It’s hard to improve on a classic

 

[agedhorse]

Gotcha, you are talking about the Carbine and not the WD-800.

The Carbine's passive mid is cut only, I suspect "boost" is a typo in the manual going back over 10 years.

 

[Al Kraft]

I hope the explanation is not misleading.

It is unfortunately a little awkward unless you read between the lines with some level of technical knowledge. If, however, one is armed with explanations you've shared in the past about these type of circuit designs, it makes more sense.

 

[donahue]

I'd like to try an M6/9 if anyone has one to part with. Preferably one with the spec upgrades.

After 51 pages I'm gassing pretty hard