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Mic'ing bass amp for live shows?

#81
This may go without saying, but going DI doesn't mean you lose the benefit of all the coloring that your bass, your effects and your preamp add to your sound, so long as you can send your DI signal "post" instead of only "pre". Most heads have that option, don't they?

Essentially, what you "lose" by going DI is anything the speakers may add. Of course, as so many people have pointed out so many times before, your "sound" doesn't matter so much, because your "sound" will be altered greatly be the addition of everyone else's "sound". In other words, the only thing that counts is how you sound in the mix. You can't tell that from the stage, no matter how good your ears are.

So, you either have a sound man who is skilled enough to make you sound good in the mix, or you will sound like crap. Mic'd, DI'd, combo'd, whatever.

I didn't believe any of this stuff until I spent a few shows out from behind the bass and out in front of the mixing board. Sound guys are a popular whipping boy, but they sure can do a lot to make your band sound better.
 
#82
Scootron, your sound may not matter so much to you. Mine matters greatly, and if I don't have the sound of my amp in the PA, I want to know why. Your approach is valid...for you. If that's what you like to do, more power to you. I don't.

I realize this is a pretty controversial topic with soundmen, but there shouldn't be a single bit of controversy at all. It's a load of absolute steaming horse puckey that the PA is so different that you're never going to get your sound from your amp in the PA. Every gig I play, I manage to get the sound of my amp in the PA, and it sounds like my amp, only bigger. Yes, occasionally they might have to EQ the ultra-low freqs out of it, but that doesn't mean the sound isn't there. That just means the soundman felt it was stepping on the bass drum, so he rolled off the ultra low freqs that step on the bass drum. Rarely happens with my Ampeg rigs, though. Most of them come pre-rolled off.

The only times I haven't been able to do it were when I had to use one of those dinky vocals-only PA's with no sub, but I don't run the bass through them when I have to use them. Otherwise, it doesn't matter whether it's two inexpensive full-ranges on poles + sub, or a state of the art line array PA with massive subs...unless the soundman drastically EQ's me, I get the same sound in the PA that I get in my amp by micing it with a good flat-response mic. It's not hard at all to do.
 
#83
JimmyM said:
Scootron, your sound may not matter so much to you. Mine matters greatly, and if I don't have the sound of my amp in the PA, I want to know why. Your approach is valid...for you. If that's what you like to do, more power to you. I don't.

I realize this is a pretty controversial topic with soundmen, but there shouldn't be a single bit of controversy at all. It's a load of absolute steaming horse puckey that the PA is so different that you're never going to get your sound from your amp in the PA. Every gig I play, I manage to get the sound of my amp in the PA, and it sounds like my amp, only bigger. Yes, occasionally they might have to EQ the ultra-low freqs out of it, but that doesn't mean the sound isn't there. That just means the soundman felt it was stepping on the bass drum, so he rolled off the ultra low freqs that step on the bass drum. Rarely happens with my Ampeg rigs, though. Most of them come pre-rolled off.

The only times I haven't been able to do it were when I had to use one of those dinky vocals-only PA's with no sub, but I don't run the bass through them when I have to use them. Otherwise, it doesn't matter whether it's two inexpensive full-ranges on poles + sub, or a state of the art line array PA with massive subs...unless the soundman drastically EQ's me, I get the same sound in the PA that I get in my amp by micing it with a good flat-response mic. It's not hard at all to do.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure we disagree that much, Jimmy. My sound matters to me, and I get the sound of my Ampeg through a PA. What I don't get going DI is the sound of my cab's speakers. But, I play different cabs at different times, and that's the one area that I'm willing to give some ground.

It's not a huge problem for me, since I want my cab speakers to be as "neutral" as possible, and simply reproduce whatever I am inputting, adding as little color as possible (unlike my guitarist). So, it doesn't matter to me whether my sound is amplified by the PA system, so long as it is producing what I am sending.

The rest of my post had to do with the fact that a bass player's sound is only as good as it works into the mix. That's a different point entirely.

I've never played in a band with a second bassist, but any time I have a guitarist who obsesses over his "sound", it usually means he doesn't give a damn about how the band sounds so long as he can hear himself and likes what he hears.

But that's not what a band is about. Anybody who doesn't understand that is just some guy soloing in the midst of some other guys trying to play some music.
 
#84
JimmyM said:
BTW, not a lot of people know how good Heil mics are. I got mine because Justin MJ raved about how good it sounded on his B-15N for a Dixie Chicks session produced by Rick Rubin. It's like an RE20 except it goes lower. And I don't see anything the least bit fussy about using either the PR 40 or the RE 20.
Click to expand...

Agreed about the Heil - the guys I spoke with had heard of Heil, but had little or no experience using them. And I'm not trying to say that the RE20 is fussy, but I am saying that the perception exists, at least amongst some. More importantly, there seem to be a number of solutions that different folks are committed to, depending on their own situations and preferences. As with anything, I guess the best solution is to try some of the darned things and see how well they work - though I suspect that the variables will make it more difficult to make a determination live than recording.

By the way Jimmy, how well does the Heil handle wind? I do a lot of outdoor stuff in spring/summer, and for that reason tend to use a DI a lot.
 
#85
So far so good with the wind. I'm sure it picks up a little, but no worse than any other mic up there. And I don't get any complaints, though a couple guys have expressed some concerns about it. But I tell them, "You don't seem so concerned about the guitar mic," and it kind of puts it in perspective ;)
 
#86
Hmmmm....five pages and no one has mentioned the inherent danger of polarity/phase mismatch.

Tsk tsk!

I like the DI/mic combo too, but unless the soundguy knows what he's doing (and knows how to check polarity) the tone of a mic/DI combo will end up WORSE than if you used one or the other alone.
 
#87
scootron said:
This may go without saying, but going DI doesn't mean you lose the benefit of all the coloring that your bass, your effects and your preamp add to your sound, so long as you can send your DI signal "post" instead of only "pre". Most heads have that option, don't they?

Essentially, what you "lose" by going DI is anything the speakers may add. Of course, as so many people have pointed out so many times before, your "sound" doesn't matter so much, because your "sound" will be altered greatly be the addition of everyone else's "sound". In other words, the only thing that counts is how you sound in the mix. You can't tell that from the stage, no matter how good your ears are.

So, you either have a sound man who is skilled enough to make you sound good in the mix, or you will sound like crap. Mic'd, DI'd, combo'd, whatever.

I didn't believe any of this stuff until I spent a few shows out from behind the bass and out in front of the mixing board. Sound guys are a popular whipping boy, but they sure can do a lot to make your band sound better.
Click to expand...

+1
 
#88
AndyLES said:
I like the DI/mic combo too, but unless the soundguy knows what he's doing (and knows how to check polarity) the tone of a mic/DI combo will end up WORSE than if you used one or the other alone.
Click to expand...

Not "will", "might". It's a crapshoot. Even polarity is not an absolute since it's a finer-grained issue of phase, really... Usually this can be somewhat minimized by running the DI channel somewhat like a lowpass and the mic channel like a highpass.

All rather unexact, really ; }
 
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#89
greenboy said:
Not "will", "might". It's a crapshoot. Even polarity is not an absolute since it's a finer-grained issue of phase, really... Usually this can be somewhat minimized by running the DI channel somewhat like a lowpass and the mic channel like a highpass.

All rather unexact, really ; }
Click to expand...


Yeah, you're right; MIGHT is the better word.

What I typically do is cut everything below 300hz on the mic channel, and then cutting everything above on the DI. Of course, some tweaking is necessary, but this always gets me in the ballpark.
 
#90
In all my years of playing, I can't think of one time where using a DI/mic put me out of phase. Not in the studio, not live. Even if it does, though, it's very easily corrected.
 
#92
JimmyM said:
In all my years of playing, I can't think of one time where using a DI/mic put me out of phase. Not in the studio, not live. Even if it does, though, it's very easily corrected.
Click to expand...

Yep, when you get to a certain tier in live mixers and especially studio mixers you have a polarity switch on any input anyway. When you don't, it's often just a case of placing the mic a little differently, ther's a lot of phase relationship going on as regards both distance and angle (and what's diffracting off the baffle).
 
#95
AndyLES said:
Hmmmm....five pages and no one has mentioned the inherent danger of polarity/phase mismatch.

Tsk tsk!

I like the DI/mic combo too, but unless the soundguy knows what he's doing (and knows how to check polarity) the tone of a mic/DI combo will end up WORSE than if you used one or the other alone.
Click to expand...

+1

And nobody talked about the coupling effect in a 8/10 that will not be capture by a mike it front of a single 10"..... :D

EDIT: I feel the need to explain ;
We were just mentioning phase issues on miking an amp + a DI , then I added;
When miking an amp , like an 8/10 in that example , the coupling effect you have in front of it is something impossible to recreate in a PA with a microphone. (of course and obviously) Since people were mentioning wanted in the PA "EXACTLY" what they hear on their amps.

Phew !
 
#97
akaTRENT said:
Id like to hear jimmy's response to this.
Click to expand...
+1

One easy solution would be to put the mike at 10-20 feet in front of the amp.
To capture exactly what the bass player is hearing , it would be ideal to put the mike in the back of his head..... :0)

There is a free marketing idea right there , my pleasure ;)
 
#98
fokof said:
+1

One easy solution would be to put the mike at 10-20 feet in front of the amp. To capture exactly what the bass player is hearing , it would be ideal to put the mike in the back of his head..... :0)

There is a free marketing idea right there , my pleasure ;)
Click to expand...

Yeah, using epoxy would be the best bet.
 
#99
fokof said:
+1

One easy solution would be to put the mike at 10-20 feet in front of the amp.
To capture exactly what the bass player is hearing , it would be ideal to put the mike in the back of his head..... :0)

There is a free marketing idea right there , my pleasure ;)
Click to expand...

Thats well and good but most venues only give 4-6 feet of moving room.
So with that said what would you say?
 

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