Missing out by not being able to read music?

[topo morto]

OK, lets debate, but first can you need to prove the validity of the English Language,

Sure, It's only sensible to do that as a prelude to every conversation. Especially when you're in one of those pubs that opens 'til 3am...

 

[Febs]

No. But just because something has been used for some things, and is therefore provably useful, doesn't mean it's as good, or useful, as it could be.

Whether standard notation is as good or useful as it could be is not the subject of the thread, and it appears to be a subject that no one except you has any interest in discussing here.

 

[topo morto]

Neither is the 12 tone western system. Look at a piano - the space between tones isn't always equal. Standard notation reflects this. Your complaint is really about the 12 tone western system, not SN.

I don't like the traditional keyboard layout either, of course - again, very much 'C is king'. Others have recognised the drawbacks of this enough to do something about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isomorphic_keyboard

I have no beef with the 12-tone system though, which doesn't have to be laid out with any key or scale in mind, as indeed it is not on the guitar or bass.

I have experimented with writing music for other tonal systems, even going so far as making sounds with differently-spaced partials to try to make the harmony work, but 12-TET is the one for me in this life.

It's actually very easy to suggest positions for stringed instruments. One look at at violin, cello, or double bass method books would show you this.

It's possible to do so, but SN with fingering suggestions is far from the easiest way of suggesting fingering. Of course it doesn't aim to be, as per my original comment.

I'll also disagree about reflecting the harmonic structure of the music. One glance easily shows the contour of the lines notated, in a very intuitive manner.

It certainly shows the melodic structure much better than, say, tab. But I think it's only intuitive in a diatonic context.

Accidentals throughout can guide the eye to variations in harmonic structure, again, very quickly.

you're still having to deduce them, rather than the system making it easy for you. Like anything, you can get good with practice... but easier would be better.

It *can* and sometimes does. It's universally hated by the musicians who play swing music and want to interpret the amount of swing based on their own experience.

Cool, I didn't know that. Any links? I've only ever seen this:

Link Removed

 

[SactoBass]

Am I missing out by not speaking Spanish?

As long as you aren't livin la vida loca, you should be fine.

 

[topo morto]

Certainly, not everyone needs to learn to read music. It's a skill (like any other) that will be of more use to some people than others. Still, even if only endeavouring to learn it purely for the intellectual challenge, I fail to see how anyone would be worse off for learning to read. Don't have the time? I get that. Have a disability that prevents it? That makes sense to. There are probably a million 'reasons' not to learn to read music, but it still stands to reason that those who can (to varying degrees of facility) simply ARE able to enjoy music in a way that those who choose not to read cannot.

I think that's spot on. It's when people start suggesting that SN or 'conventional' theory are the single defining ways to gain deeper understanding of music that I feel the need to tap on the glass...

 

[topo morto]

Again, no one is saying you HAVE to learn to read music (or a foreign language) in order to be productive or happy. However, to make the claim that you are not missing out on something by choosing to remain ignorant of it is, well,... admittedly hard for me to understand!

Assuming that we are all people who have to make choices as to what to do with our time, the somewhat philosophical question "I am I missing out without being able to do X" is, translated into practical terms, effectively equivalent to 'Should I actually take the time learn X?'. And as you've said yourself (about learning Spanish) sometimes the answer there is sadly 'no'.

 

[lfmn16]

How about for death/sludge/grunge/vomit/metal/rotting corpse music played by lesbian nazi hookers who were abducted by aliens and forced into weight loss programs? (in either mixolydian or phrygian mode)

I'll give you the mixolydian, but phrygian??? Get serious!!!

 

[Pacman]

I don't like the traditional keyboard layout either, of course - again, very much 'C is king'. Others have recognised the drawbacks of this enough to do something about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isomorphic_keyboard

That's no keyboard *I'd* want to play, that's for sure. But then, I have keyboard training, and that could very well just be my preference to the traditional layout.

I have no beef with the 12-tone system though, which doesn't have to be laid out with any key or scale in mind, as indeed it is not on the guitar or bass.

Wait, didn't you state that as one of the reasons SN wasn't good as a system? Or am I mistaken?




It's possible to do so, but SN with fingering suggestions is far from the easiest way of suggesting fingering. Of course it doesn't aim to be, as per my original comment.

[/quote]
And most musicians don't want position to be indicated, so that's a wash there.

It certainly shows the melodic structure much better than, say, tab. But I think it's only intuitive in a diatonic context.

Contour of line is just as intuitive in a non-diatonic context as it is in a diatonic one. At the end of this page, the line goes out of key, and it's still very easy to see the shape of the line:

you're still having to deduce them, rather than the system making it easy for you. Like anything, you can get good with practice... but easier would be better.

In your opinion. Just because it's easier wouldn't make it better.

Cool, I didn't know that. Any links? I've only ever seen this:

Link Removed

I don't have links, but many times, especially on big band gigs playing old music, I've seen swing notated dotted quarter/eighth, and it's terrible. The amount of swing is tempo-dependent, and swing musicians are completely comfortable with this concept.

 

[T-MOST]

Actually, Stevie reads and writes music in braille. George Shearing, too.

So did Ray Charles.

 

[topo morto]

Whether standard notation is as good or useful as it could be is not the subject of the thread, and it appears to be a subject that no one except you has any interest in discussing here.

To answer questions such as the (presumably long-gone) OP's in practical terms you have to do a basic cost/benefit... so just trying to encourage people not to overstate the benefits...

 

[scotch]

Assuming that we are all people who have to make choices as to what to do with our time, the somewhat philosophical question "I am I missing out without being able to do X" is, translated into practical terms, effectively equivalent to 'Should I actually take the time learn X?'. And as you've said yourself (about learning Spanish) sometimes the answer there is sadly 'no'.

I agree 100%!

 

[Jeff Bonny]

Assuming that we are all people who have to make choices as to what to do with our time, the somewhat philosophical question "I am I missing out without being able to do X" is, translated into practical terms, effectively equivalent to 'Should I actually take the time learn X?'. And as you've said yourself (about learning Spanish) sometimes the answer there is sadly 'no'.

You're arguing apples and oranges though. From a musicological or purely artistic point of view your ideas may have some merit. But notice that your most tenacious critics are seasoned pros who have through first hand experience seen what works and what doesn't in the world of a working bassist. In terms of cutting gigs to pay the rent you will in no uncertain terms be missing out by not learning to read. This is a simple truth. I'm at a bit of a lost to explain why it always generates debate where there really is none.

 

[lfmn16]

Again, no one is saying you HAVE to learn to read music (or a foreign language) in order to be productive or happy. However, to make the claim that you are not missing out on something by choosing to remain ignorant of it is, well,... admittedly hard for me to understand!

People will concoct any illogical, convoluted argument in their quest to justify their ignorance.

 

[Febs]

To answer questions such as the (presumably long-gone) OP's in practical terms you have to do a basic cost/benefit... so just trying to encourage people not to overstate the benefits...

One can evaluate the benefits of reading standard notation perfectly well without getting sidetracked by explorations of theoretical notation systems that no one has ever adopted in practice.

 

[lfmn16]

To answer questions such as the (presumably long-gone) OP's in practical terms you have to do a basic cost/benefit... so just trying to encourage people not to overstate the benefits...

Without knowing the OPs goals, you can't do a cost/benefit analysis. Besides, he didn't ask if it was worth the effort to learn to read music, he asked if he was missing out by not being able to read music; two entirely different questions.

Since everyone who knows how to read music, did not know how to read music at one time, but those who don't know how to read music, presumably never knew how to read music, I'm not sure how the latter group can credibly answer the question.

One can evaluate the benefits of reading standard notation perfectly well without getting sidetracked by explorations of theoretical notation systems that no one has ever adopted in practice.

+1

Just trying to muddy the waters.

 

[dmac1961]

Yep, the OP's question has been answered ad nauseum, from several points of view. If you want to debate the value of standard notation, I vote you start a separate thread.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

Yep, the OP's question has been answered ad nauseum, from several points of view. If you want to debate the value of standard notation, I vote you start a separate thread.

Meh, if you're worried about ad nauseum this question was answered ad nauseum at talkbass some time probably around 2002.

 

[JimmyM]

If there were a better system, we would have all adopted it. But let's assume there is a better system...you will be using it alone and that's all there is to it.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

If there were a better system, we would have all adopted it.

Hell, even if there were a "better" system that we didn't adopt the one we have is the most useful for communicating with other musicians right NOW. English is not a very efficient language but if you wanna work in a place where that's how they communicate you learn it.

 

[topo morto]

Wait, didn't you state that as one of the reasons SN wasn't good as a system? Or am I mistaken?

I hope not... I'm very happy with the 12 tone system. I just think with SN, the 12 tone system is covering itself and turning away from the camera...

Contour of line is just as intuitive in a non-diatonic context as it is in a diatonic one

Just that the gradients are not quite right. If you play C, then C# (denoted with a # accidental) in a piece notated with no sharps or flats in the key signature, the notes will be in the same place horizontally on the score even though the pitch is different.

In your opinion. Just because it's easier wouldn't make it better.

True, I have been assuming that easier = better.

The amount of swing is tempo-dependent, and swing musicians are completely comfortable with this concept.

Again true, though that wouldn't make marking a distinct amount of swing illogical if a given tempo was marked and expected to be followed.