Missing out by not being able to read music?

[N. Kentucky Bass]

Yesterday at band practice, we were working up a new outro to My Funny Valentine. The bandleader / guitarist said, "I'm thinking about playing something like this; what could you play against it?" and he played a a couple bars. Knowing the chords he was using, I said, "Sounds like anything from a Phrygian scale would work fine," and played a couple bars. He said, "Perfect." Done. That's the language of music. Can't tell you how much time I pissed away in the past before I knew how to speak it. Heck, I'm still learning!

 

[Febs]

Just that the gradients are not quite right. If you play C, then C# (denoted with a # accidental) in a piece notated with no sharps or flats in the key signature, the notes will be in the same place horizontally on the score even though the pitch is different.

But you continue to ignore the fact that the accidental gives you valuable information, as I explained in great detail earlier. In the example you posted from "In the Mood," for example, the accidentals tell you at a glance all of the notes that are not diatonic to Ab Major. The fact that the diatonic Eb and non-diatonic Ebb are on the same line doesn't make much of a difference compared to the amount of information gained by use of the accidental.

(By the way, the original arrangement uses a D natural there, rather than an Ebb.)

Again true, though that wouldn't make marking a distinct amount of swing illogical if a given tempo was marked and expected to be followed.

Under what circumstances do you imagine that marking a distinct amount of swing would actually be necessary or useful?

 

[lfmn16]

But you continue to ignore the fact that the accidental gives you valuable information, as I explained in great detail earlier. In the example you posted from "In the Mood," for example, the accidentals tell you at a glance all of the notes that are not diatonic to Ab Major. The fact that the diatonic Eb and non-diatonic Ebb are on the same line doesn't make much of a difference compared to the amount of information gained by use of the accidental.

(By the way, the original arrangement uses a D natural there, rather than an Ebb.)



Under what circumstances do you imagine that marking a distinct amount of swing would actually be necessary or useful?

This discussion reminds me of that guy that was arguing about chord tone arpeggios. Didn't make a lick of sense, but he was defending that argument until the bitter end.

 

[uOpt]

Missing out by not being able to read music?

The question is: what did you spend the time on instead. Learning scales by ear? Arguably a more useful and better payoff investment of time if you play in rock or pop music.

 

[topo morto]

You're arguing apples and oranges though. From a musicological or purely artistic point of view your ideas may have some merit. But notice that your most tenacious critics are seasoned pros who have through first hand experience seen what works and what doesn't in the world of a working bassist. In terms of cutting gigs to pay the rent you will in no uncertain terms be missing out by not learning to read. This is a simple truth. I'm at a bit of a lost to explain why it always generates debate where there really is none

Sure - for anyone who wants to be like them, there's not much to think about. it's quite simple. Learn to read SN. It has been said, and agreed with, many, many times.

For others - and there's a lot of music, pro and otherwise, that goes on outside of playing back someone else's lines live - it might be a different equation.

 

[topo morto]

Without knowing the OPs goals, you can't do a cost/benefit analysis. Besides, he didn't ask if it was worth the effort to learn to read music, he asked if he was missing out by not being able to read music; two entirely different questions.

Surely two distinct, but very related questions. Anyway, I think the OP may be long gone. Hopefully he makes the right choice for him.

Since everyone who knows how to read music, did not know how to read music at one time, but those who don't know how to read music, presumably never knew how to read music, I'm not sure how the latter group can credibly answer the question.

I did know how to read music. Like anything else, you use it or lose it. I lost it. At least the ability to do it in real time.
I do, of course, still understand what SN is and how it works.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

Sure - for anyone who wants to be like them, there's not much to think about. it's quite simple. Learn to read SN. It has been said, and agreed with, many, many times.

For others - and there's a lot of music, pro and otherwise, that goes on outside of playing back someone else's lines live - it might be a different equation.

I guess the amateur historian in me believes that the more perspectives you can approach something with the more deeply you can understand it. Even if ultimately you abandon it for other means of communication reading is for the western musician essential to a complete understanding of the musical culture in which he is functioning. Without it many doors are not just closed but invisible.

 

[bearfoot]

I don't always read or write notes. But when I do, I use standard notation.
Stay musical, my friends.

 

[mcblahflooper94]

I don't always read or write notes. But when I do, I use standard notation.
Stay musical, my friends.

 

[topo morto]

But you continue to ignore the fact that the accidental gives you valuable information, as I explained in great detail earlier. In the example you posted from "In the Mood," for example, the accidentals tell you at a glance all of the notes that are not diatonic to Ab Major.

I think I answered this in my post 212.

Under what circumstances do you imagine that marking a distinct amount of swing would actually be necessary or useful?

My post 144, point 3, sentence 2;
Jay's post 313 (not about swing, but still about the limits of notating timing)

Not trying to be rude there Febs, and sorry if I'm missing something there, but I'm sure you will agree this is all getting a bit

I'll slowly retire from this thread... I'll stay tuned for any more barbed comments but won't respond unless they're good.

Thanks for listening guys. Have a good weekend all.

 

[bucephylus]

Here is my < 2c for why reading is essential: For a given gig, especially a rock gig, it isn't. BUT, as you grow and continue to play bass over the years, the way you look at things will change. What you want to play will change. Knowing how to read is part of the literacy that can expand your world as a bass player. It opens up many and wonderful options. For me, I have to know it all: how to play by ear AND read it down. One or the other is not nearly enough.

Here is my <2c for why reading is NOT essential: Erroll Garner. Dig it.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

Here is my <2c for why reading is NOT essential: Erroll Garner.

And Marion McPartland, Buddy Rich, Wes Montgomery and Dave Brubeck...although Dave and Wes did achieve some reading ability as adults. Invariably though these people all had freakishly good ears that most of us simply were not naturally blessed with. Invariably they all also made reputations as stylists rather than as working sidemen and were all primarily band leaders.

 

[SactoBass]

I'll give you the mixolydian, but phrygian??? Get serious!!!

Hey! It wasn't me! It was the aliens. They're into that stuff.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

Hey! It wasn't me! It was the aliens. They're into that stuff.

Dude: why do people from Sacramento always seem so jealous?

 

[SactoBass]

Dude: why do people from Sacramento always seem so jealous?

UB: I wonder the same darn thing!

Btw, the scenario you described in your post #401 is an excellent example of what the skill of speaking the language can bring to the table. Good job!

 

[Ric5]

There is a theory in linguistics that says that language determines thought. So if you think in English you will think differently than if you think in German or Chinese. So lets apply that to music. When you think music do you think about dots on paper with staff lines, or do you think of numbers on paper that represent fret numbers, or do you think of how the music sounds and you have a developed ear to percieve music.

So what "language" do you use to percieve music and learn songs.

Different people's brains are wired differently, and some people take to standard notation and some don't. I found out years ago that I play better, that is to say smoother, cleaner, and with more feeling, when I play by ear instead of by notation. I play better when I play with emotion, and I play less better when I play over-thinking theory and reading notes.

OK ... that being said my daughter wanted to learn bass, guitar, and piano. So I started showing her playing by ear, playing by tabs, and playing from sheet music. She totally did not get the ear thing, and the same for tabs, but she took to sheet music and standard notation.

So that being said what is right for me is not right for her. We are all different. So to say you must learn to read music or you will not be a real musician is not valid. Also we cannot say nobody should learn to read music it is a waste of time. The list of extreemly successful musicians and songwriters who do not read is very impressive, but also you can make an equally impressive list from those who do read.

So the bottom line is ....


Know yourself ...


Then decide what is the best approach for you.

 

[SactoBass]

There is a theory in linguistics that says that language determines thought. So if you think in English you will think differently than if you think in German or Chinese. So lets apply that to music. When you think music do you think about dots on paper with staff lines, or do you think of numbers on paper that represent fret numbers, or do you think of how the music sounds and you have a developed ear to percieve music.

So what "language" do you use to percieve music and learn songs.

Different people's brains are wired differently, and some people take to standard notation and some don't. I found out years ago that I play better, that is to say smoother, cleaner, and with more feeling, when I play by ear instead of by notation. I play better when I play with emotion, and I play less better when I play over-thinking theory and reading notes.

OK ... that being said my daughter wanted to learn bass, guitar, and piano. So I started showing her playing by ear, playing by tabs, and playing from sheet music. She totally did not get the ear thing, and the same for tabs, but she took to sheet music and standard notation.

So that being said what is right for me is not right for her. We are all different. So to say you must learn to read music or you will not be a real musician is not valid. Also we cannot say nobody should learn to read music it is a waste of time. The list of extreemly successful musicians and songwriters who do not read is very impressive, but also you can make an equally impressive list from those who do read.

So the bottom line is ....


Know yourself ...


Then decide what is the best approach for you.

Very well stated, Ric5! That is the best advice for the OP.

But since humans love to argue, your excellent post [unfortunately] won't bring this discussion to a close.

 

[aprod]

Try to get into Berklee or Eastman or any reputable school without reading is impossible. If you are a serious musician you know your theory.

 

[carl h.]

The list of extreemly successful musicians and songwriters who do not read is very impressive, but also you can make an equally impressive list from those who do read.

Not really. People have been listing those who can't read here as justification of not learning to read, while nobody has given a list of those who do read as a justification for reading. I think the list would be quite biased in favor of the musicians who can read and do, though reading and playing by ear are not mutually exclusive.


I think I need a bigger stick, this horse ain't dead enough yet.

 

[scotch]

Ric5 makes some great points! The only thing I think may be missing is that playing by ear & reading notation arent't skills that are mutually exclusive. I play by ear extremely well (if I may be so bold)- my livelihood depends upon it! I read just so-so. Still, I employ BOTH skills. It's not necessarily one or the other!