Last time I checked it was slightly derogatory, however this is the interwebs..
I understand where is anger towards my comment comes from, however, the only person acting uncivil is... Well, you get the idea..
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Musicians Relief Fund........two years and counting
- Thread starter Juniorkimbrough
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- Status
Last time I checked it was slightly derogatory, however this is the interwebs..
I understand where is anger towards my comment comes from, however, the only person acting uncivil is... Well, you get the idea..
Human Capital Consulting is where I sent my donation. Hope whoever ended up with it enjoyed it.
MikeBass
Supporting Member
- Nov 4, 2003
- 11,943
- 3,140
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist- Suhr basses, PedalTrain, GHS, Ultimate Ears
SORRY SO LONG!!!!
We don't know that for sure yet. Or do you know something we don't.
Again, I'm not one way or the other at this point. (see bottom of my post).
You outlined my point.
See how something that may seem benign to one, is seen differently by another. In this situation basically saying that it was BMW's intent to take advantage of people's softspots on their heart isn't harmful, but thinking calling someone "skippy" is?? or derogatory s it was put????
Take it how ever you would like.
I was calm. very actually.
If being called skippy hurts your feelings, well I guess I'm sorry for that...........
I'm very civil.
Maybe if some one took some reading advice that they offered, they might have seen the rest of my post that Pacman so nicely quoted in his post.
Here's a recap- in case I wasn't clear (it appears I wasn't):
I pointed out that I too can read. After you made a point as if I couldn't and made it nice and big for me to try....Thanks again!
Even said your opinion is as valid as anyone else's and to have at it.
Uncivil???? Derogatory????
I then went on to say, albeit very to the point, that everyone has an opinion- like a certain part of the anatomy (which I am not the first to use that example here on TB).
And then, like other threads of this nature, and as proven by Pacman's comment agreeing with yours (much less of a good example as Pacman wouldn't jump up and start throwing around other comments- just a slight example), people start piling on about BMW and fall away from the OT and trying to find resolve.
Now, how is that hostile??? Uncivil???? Derogatory????
Basically saying keep it clean until all the cards are on the table.
And it doesn't look as if they are yet.
And one thing I would like to know, where is the "anger" in my comments?? And where do you think it comes from????
And who is uncivil??? I'm not angry at all.
Yes BMW and OTHERS here at TB did something insanely beautiful for me and my family. My bet is this is where you think t may come from.
Again, opinions......
Mike was just the ward if that.
All I ask is to lay things out, come to a factual conclusion, and then let it fly.
BTW, I also chipped in. And chipped in for others here as well too.
Want to know to who and how much????
More than what we assume is the number owed- actually darn near double that.
To who.....thats between them and I. If they would like to chime in (none of them have posted in this thread BTW) thats their business.
So yeah, I want to know what the heck happened as much as anyone else. Because if this thing turns out to be a sham...........as Ricky Recardo would say: "LUCY!!!!! You Got Somes 'Splainin To Do!!!!!"
At the VERY least, I think that the benefit of the doubt was taken away by BMW's hasty retreat from this.
Outside of that, we need to compile some data and come to a conclusion.
Insinuations, innuendo's and the like IMO (again, we all have them) should be kept out or to a bare minimum. To maintain the topic.
You disagree??
BTW, I am pretty pi$$ed off about this whole thing. Not at anyone, just the situation.
My name is brought up and I receive PM's about it.
I have zero to do with the charity.
I will not, repeat WILL NOT defend BMW about this.
What I will do, because I own him the respect from things he did for my family, will pass on that I don't think that anything seedy went on here.
I just don't see it.
It's not really his make up IMO.
This is my opinion of the guy. He really does have a heart for people.
I think it was poor execution.
Right there- poor execution and follow through (sorta like my golf swing lately!! Geez!!!!)
And his hasty retreat, well, unacceptable to me as well. What was that really???
Trust me when I say, believe him about rough times with his family right now.
I'm not going to talk for him about this, as he and I have talked many times about that situation.
But if there is any grace to be given, give it a little more.
If I offened anyone, well, I'm sorry.
We'll get answers.
We will.
Really????
We don't know that for sure yet. Or do you know something we don't.
Again, I'm not one way or the other at this point. (see bottom of my post).
You outlined my point.
See how something that may seem benign to one, is seen differently by another. In this situation basically saying that it was BMW's intent to take advantage of people's softspots on their heart isn't harmful, but thinking calling someone "skippy" is?? or derogatory s it was put????
Take it how ever you would like.
I was calm. very actually.
If being called skippy hurts your feelings, well I guess I'm sorry for that...........
Last time I checked it was slightly derogatory, however this is the interwebs..
I understand where is anger towards my comment comes from, however, the only person acting uncivil is... Well, you get the idea..
I'm very civil.
Maybe if some one took some reading advice that they offered, they might have seen the rest of my post that Pacman so nicely quoted in his post.
Here's a recap- in case I wasn't clear (it appears I wasn't):
I pointed out that I too can read. After you made a point as if I couldn't and made it nice and big for me to try....Thanks again!
Even said your opinion is as valid as anyone else's and to have at it.
Uncivil???? Derogatory????
I then went on to say, albeit very to the point, that everyone has an opinion- like a certain part of the anatomy (which I am not the first to use that example here on TB).
And then, like other threads of this nature, and as proven by Pacman's comment agreeing with yours (much less of a good example as Pacman wouldn't jump up and start throwing around other comments- just a slight example), people start piling on about BMW and fall away from the OT and trying to find resolve.
Now, how is that hostile??? Uncivil???? Derogatory????
Basically saying keep it clean until all the cards are on the table.
And it doesn't look as if they are yet.
And one thing I would like to know, where is the "anger" in my comments?? And where do you think it comes from????
And who is uncivil??? I'm not angry at all.
Yes BMW and OTHERS here at TB did something insanely beautiful for me and my family. My bet is this is where you think t may come from.
Again, opinions......
Mike was just the ward if that.
All I ask is to lay things out, come to a factual conclusion, and then let it fly.
BTW, I also chipped in. And chipped in for others here as well too.
Want to know to who and how much????
More than what we assume is the number owed- actually darn near double that.
To who.....thats between them and I. If they would like to chime in (none of them have posted in this thread BTW) thats their business.
So yeah, I want to know what the heck happened as much as anyone else. Because if this thing turns out to be a sham...........as Ricky Recardo would say: "LUCY!!!!! You Got Somes 'Splainin To Do!!!!!"
At the VERY least, I think that the benefit of the doubt was taken away by BMW's hasty retreat from this.
Outside of that, we need to compile some data and come to a conclusion.
Insinuations, innuendo's and the like IMO (again, we all have them) should be kept out or to a bare minimum. To maintain the topic.
You disagree??
BTW, I am pretty pi$$ed off about this whole thing. Not at anyone, just the situation.
My name is brought up and I receive PM's about it.
I have zero to do with the charity.
I will not, repeat WILL NOT defend BMW about this.
What I will do, because I own him the respect from things he did for my family, will pass on that I don't think that anything seedy went on here.
I just don't see it.
It's not really his make up IMO.
This is my opinion of the guy. He really does have a heart for people.
I think it was poor execution.
Right there- poor execution and follow through (sorta like my golf swing lately!! Geez!!!!)
And his hasty retreat, well, unacceptable to me as well. What was that really???
Trust me when I say, believe him about rough times with his family right now.
I'm not going to talk for him about this, as he and I have talked many times about that situation.
But if there is any grace to be given, give it a little more.
If I offened anyone, well, I'm sorry.
We'll get answers.
We will.
More traceable evidence for the Fraud Squad....not insinuating anything, that's for Lady Justice to decide.
Even if it was only $1 donated I would say the same, but this matter is in the thousands, so it deserves attention.
And by the way, BMW's constant contradictions, delay tactics and lip service is why people are pointing fingers, and insinuating fraud. I beleive these people NOW have a right to say what they are saying, they have received nothing short of lies and delays at this point.
Time for the law to get involved...simple as that.
Time for the law to get involved...simple as that.
MikeBass
Supporting Member
- Nov 4, 2003
- 11,943
- 3,140
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist- Suhr basses, PedalTrain, GHS, Ultimate Ears
MikeBass
Supporting Member
- Nov 4, 2003
- 11,943
- 3,140
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist- Suhr basses, PedalTrain, GHS, Ultimate Ears
See here is what I would like to know.
From what I understand, and I could be way off, charities do not have to make public record of donors and the disbursements of their funds.
In good taste I think most do, unless donors wish to stay unknown.
If you donate to the Red Cross, do you have the right to know where your money went?? I'm not sure.
But this wasn't a fully evolved charity yet, so I'm not sure if any of that would apply here.
Again, I think Mike started something and maybe didn't have the capacity to finish it up.
I still don't think that he would willfully defraud anyone. I don't see that.
I could be wrong, but I don't think thats it.
When things got tough for him early on, he should have stepped in and said so. Maybe then handed it off.
MikeBass
Supporting Member
- Nov 4, 2003
- 11,943
- 3,140
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist- Suhr basses, PedalTrain, GHS, Ultimate Ears
FWIW- I'm gonna stay out of this.
But one last thing I will do is fly a call into Mike.
I won't be a mouth piece for him, but I will see if I can get some solid information of some sort.
This is too close to me right now.
Just to be fair, I won't delete my posts. But I won't respond either.
I'll only chime in f I have some thing useful to offer up.
PM me and we can exchange thoughts privately.
I want you guys to see what I wrote and have a chance to comment.
But one last thing I will do is fly a call into Mike.
I won't be a mouth piece for him, but I will see if I can get some solid information of some sort.
This is too close to me right now.
Just to be fair, I won't delete my posts. But I won't respond either.
I'll only chime in f I have some thing useful to offer up.
PM me and we can exchange thoughts privately.
I want you guys to see what I wrote and have a chance to comment.
It is my belief that Charities are monitored even more than a Major Corporation or Small Business, because of the fact the are raising funds for a specific purpose, years ago I co-released an album with another artist and we raised over $30k for cancer research, we had to account for every penny, and we did and we did so accordingly, we were actually off by 14 cents, and I threw a quarter on the table to make up for it.
But this situation never made it to Charity status, legally they should have registered it before accepting any funds, which the courts will have a field day on.
- Feb 3, 2005
- 7,331
- 10,198
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist: Bergantino Audio Systems and GHS Strings
Wow, just read through this whole sad thing. I think at the very least Big Mike W could have responded in a different manner. Considering funds were raised for a specific person and they never got a cent really cast a poor light on this. There is bad execution we have for sure, but the money for a specific situation that is not accounted for really raises a lot of suspicion.
- Apr 1, 2000
- 17,406
- 9,859
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
I'll quote myself here, for clarity's sake:
Moreover, with BMW stating his unwillingness to further deal with any of this makes me (and obviously others) extremely suspicious of the facts. Whether BMW intended to defraud anyone is immaterial. However, if he has, that's all that matters. If he hasn't, he needs to clear this up, otherwise he is deserving of the comments he's getting here.
Moreover, with BMW stating his unwillingness to further deal with any of this makes me (and obviously others) extremely suspicious of the facts. Whether BMW intended to defraud anyone is immaterial. However, if he has, that's all that matters. If he hasn't, he needs to clear this up, otherwise he is deserving of the comments he's getting here.
When I said that it was Derogatory I was refering to the "Skippy" comment, trust me, I took it lightly..
The remark you made that came off as uncivil is quoted below:
Like I said, I understand why you felt this way, but I have every right based on the evidence in this thread to say what I did. When (and if) he comes clean I will more than happily revoke my words..
- Mar 22, 2005
- 3,718
- 6
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Lakland Basses
fyi, I was PM'ed by an anonymous donor and well respected TBer who preferred not get their name in this ugly mess ............here is their PM
"Hey, hope all is going well. I wanted to get in touch to let you know about my donations, though I didn't want to post it in the thread because my memory of the exact details are foggy. I have 2 transactions on my PayPal account to Human Capital Consulting, LLC-which I beleive is Mike's PP address.
One transaction was on 2/9/2007 for $150. I believe that that was for Jeff. I cannot be 100% sure though.
The other was on 4/18/2007 for $250. I was solicited by Mike via email in March or April of 2007 with info on the founder of Accugroove. I'm sorry, I forget his name. This one is a little clearer. Appearantly, the owner of Accugroove was having a rough spot, financially, and needed some help.
At this point, you're certainly welcome to share this info, but I'd rather remain anonomous since I can't say for certain what exactly went down. If I can dig up some emails, I can share more info publically, but I thought that this info might be helpful. One thing I can say for sure is that I donated $400. I have documentation on that."
I'm wondering if anything legally can be done since Mike doesn't seem too willing to share his accounting records. At the very least we DO KNOW that Jeff's cause was a fraud and that no money was given to him.
Tom, got any advice on how we should go about getting the accounting info from Mike since he doesn't want to help.
also please take the pissing matches elsewhere MikeBass and jazzy.........MikeBass I know I've spoken to you via PM and I understand that you appreciate what BigMike did for you in your time of need but I DO wish that you would share some of the info you told me publicly.
"Hey, hope all is going well. I wanted to get in touch to let you know about my donations, though I didn't want to post it in the thread because my memory of the exact details are foggy. I have 2 transactions on my PayPal account to Human Capital Consulting, LLC-which I beleive is Mike's PP address.
One transaction was on 2/9/2007 for $150. I believe that that was for Jeff. I cannot be 100% sure though.
The other was on 4/18/2007 for $250. I was solicited by Mike via email in March or April of 2007 with info on the founder of Accugroove. I'm sorry, I forget his name. This one is a little clearer. Appearantly, the owner of Accugroove was having a rough spot, financially, and needed some help.
At this point, you're certainly welcome to share this info, but I'd rather remain anonomous since I can't say for certain what exactly went down. If I can dig up some emails, I can share more info publically, but I thought that this info might be helpful. One thing I can say for sure is that I donated $400. I have documentation on that."
I'm wondering if anything legally can be done since Mike doesn't seem too willing to share his accounting records. At the very least we DO KNOW that Jeff's cause was a fraud and that no money was given to him.
Tom, got any advice on how we should go about getting the accounting info from Mike since he doesn't want to help.
also please take the pissing matches elsewhere MikeBass and jazzy.........MikeBass I know I've spoken to you via PM and I understand that you appreciate what BigMike did for you in your time of need but I DO wish that you would share some of the info you told me publicly.
jive1
Commercial User
I can confirm part of this because I received a similar e-mail, and donated to the cause as well. I talked with the recipient of the collection yesterday, and he has told me that funds were received and very much appreciated. The amount collected or the amount received, I do not know.
- Mar 22, 2005
- 3,718
- 6
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Lakland Basses
Tom, how would you suggest us going about figuring out who donated how much? I know both Thor and myself have records in our paypal accounts showing how much we donated. It would be a start if we began collecting these files (you can save your paypal records to a quicken or quickbooks file) to get a tally of how much was donated since you dont' have acess to Big Mike's paypal acct.
jive1
Commercial User
I also noted that according to this post, http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3129865&postcount=25, all funds sent after 7/4/2006 were not to go to Mike Fredericks.
I'm not speaking for Tom, but based on our findings on this thread the following was donated to the Relief Fund (not including funds to MikeBass or to Mark). Note that not all of it is confirmed.
Thor - $100
JuniorK - $400
Eggman - $100
Anonymous - $150
Bob QSC - $20
The total comes out to $780. Pretty much covers a good chunk of the filing fees.
But doing some research, looks like there is more to it. Please keep in mind that the following isn't confirmed, so don't speculate too much.
- Based on this thread, http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=309422 , BMW sold an amp donated to him on behalf of Jeff. Sum of the sale isn't mentioned, but the asking price was $900 for the amp.
- Based on this thread, http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=308428 , 3 Behringer pedals were sold for Jeff for an asking price of $60.
So, that gives us an unconfirmed total of $1740.
In this thread, http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=308319, BMW states that $1000 was collected on Jeff's behalf. But, Jeff stated he never received any funds, and BMW hasn't refuted it. If Jeff indeed received $1000, then that leaves $740 left which would indicate a shortage based on the evidence received thus far. But, Jeff stated that he never received the funds, based on Tom receiving about $900 for filing fees there is $840 that is unaccounted for based on the current evidence. BMW stated numerous times that he paid the webhosting fees from his own pocket, and if that is indeed the case then there's still a considerable chunk unaccounted for. If he didn't actually do that, webhosting and domain registration fees would be about $300 year for an expensive option. That would still leave $540 unaccounted for. If more donors came forward to indicate their contribution, we find that sum to be even higher.
I went back and re-examined my auction transaction on
the Aguilar 924. There is more to it.
I note that I sent 100 to BMW on 2/12/2007 which is fully
documented.
I also note that I start the auction for the Aguilar 924 on
2/13/2007.
Thus, I fronted the cash for the donation to begin with.
The buyer, andrewd, who has posted above, bought the
gear on 2/22 and I sent it to him unpaid for on 2/23/2007.
I checked my PayPal and note andrewd never paid me directly
during this time period. I then checked my PM's to him and noted
that I had asked him to pay BMW on a direct basis
(thus saving PP fees and maximizing the contribution), when
he had the funds available. The deal was for 50 bucks first
and the balance about a month later or so.
Sorry to get so nitpicky, but I really didn't start taking a
closer look at this again till recently, and I want to get the
details right as a bit of time has passed since this all went down.
I have PM'ed andrewd and asked him to review his PP activity
for this period and verify the payment and the dates as
well as the payee. Just for the record.
So right now I stand at 100 confirmed plus another 100
presently unconfirmed arranged by me through the auction
deal with andrewd for a total of 200. That was for the jeffbass
28 donation deal.
I sent a copy of those PM's to JuniorK, and am going to send
a copy of those PM's to Jive1 as well for independent verification
purposes. The date of those PM's are 2/23/2007
and they are still in my Inbox folder.
So 200 looks like the new number.
Double your pleasure, double your fun!
the Aguilar 924. There is more to it.
I note that I sent 100 to BMW on 2/12/2007 which is fully
documented.
I also note that I start the auction for the Aguilar 924 on
2/13/2007.
Thus, I fronted the cash for the donation to begin with.
The buyer, andrewd, who has posted above, bought the
gear on 2/22 and I sent it to him unpaid for on 2/23/2007.
I checked my PayPal and note andrewd never paid me directly
during this time period. I then checked my PM's to him and noted
that I had asked him to pay BMW on a direct basis
(thus saving PP fees and maximizing the contribution), when
he had the funds available. The deal was for 50 bucks first
and the balance about a month later or so.
Sorry to get so nitpicky, but I really didn't start taking a
closer look at this again till recently, and I want to get the
details right as a bit of time has passed since this all went down.
I have PM'ed andrewd and asked him to review his PP activity
for this period and verify the payment and the dates as
well as the payee. Just for the record.
So right now I stand at 100 confirmed plus another 100
presently unconfirmed arranged by me through the auction
deal with andrewd for a total of 200. That was for the jeffbass
28 donation deal.
I sent a copy of those PM's to JuniorK, and am going to send
a copy of those PM's to Jive1 as well for independent verification
purposes. The date of those PM's are 2/23/2007
and they are still in my Inbox folder.
So 200 looks like the new number.
Double your pleasure, double your fun!
Jive I can appreciate you want to micromanage the total of the donations. But it is REALLY isn't going to get any money back or solve any problems? All that is going to happen is you are going to have a bunch of people with torches and pitchforks breaking down the gates of TalkBass.
BIGMIKEW didn't handle the money properly, coming up with a complete total of funds given isn't going to fix anything. If he never filed an official 501 form it doesn't matter why he said he needed the funds, he doesn't have to account to anyone.
It would be the same legally as a homeless man asking for money to say he is going to eat with it to find out he is just going to go buy some beer. No one can sue the bum for misrepresentation. Neither can anyone on here for BIGMIKEW. He didn't have any official business or charity registered properly.
I agree it's shady, but stop the witchhunt. Your time is worth much more than micromanaging money no one will ever see again.
BIGMIKEW didn't handle the money properly, coming up with a complete total of funds given isn't going to fix anything. If he never filed an official 501 form it doesn't matter why he said he needed the funds, he doesn't have to account to anyone.
It would be the same legally as a homeless man asking for money to say he is going to eat with it to find out he is just going to go buy some beer. No one can sue the bum for misrepresentation. Neither can anyone on here for BIGMIKEW. He didn't have any official business or charity registered properly.
I agree it's shady, but stop the witchhunt. Your time is worth much more than micromanaging money no one will ever see again.
jive1
Commercial User
It's serious when someone is irresponsible with contributions to a charity. I put that higher in grievousness than faking your suicide (pollybass), contentious arguing (morf, he who shall not be named), using two logons (labgnat), and so on. It's a violation of trust, regardless of intention or malfeasance. People trusted what was said, people acted based on it, and people trusted that it would be handled properly. BMWs charity threads were stickied, and temporarily allowed in forums where they shouldn't be until people complained about it. People with good standing here were brought into it and faced criticism for it (MikeBass, TomBowlus) . There were folks who criticized the charity from the get go, and they either deleted their posts out of courtesy/respect, or received TOS violations. There were many TBers who got involved or expressed support, and by doing so added to the trust level of the fund.
Regardless of the intention, the handling of this is pretty irresponsible. There were some pretty strong calls to action such as
- "URGENT! 2 YEAR OLD GIRL IN OHIO NEEDS OUR HELP!!! "
- "PLEASE send (and I hate to say this) AS MUCH AS YOU CAN via PayPal to:"
- "If you have extra gear (a pedal, small amp, etc.) that could be donated and sold to raise money for Jeff that would be great as well"
- "Honestly, we need cash folks and lots of it. Every bit will help."
- "Remember, because we WILL be a 501(c)(3) Charity, all donations of cash and gear are tax deductible and you will receive all necessary documentation so you can write it off of your taxes."
- "On www.musiciansfund.org people will be able to setup automatic monthly donations of virtually any dollar amount. If we can get 1,000 monthly donor's to contribute $10 a month we will be able to raise $10,000 a month. I can tell you that that amount of money will go a long way to help people in need."
Obviously those statements were to generate funds, and it's irresponsible to make those kinds of pleas without any plan or process for dealing with donations or providing any accountability.
The other irresponsible thing was to tell folks that everything was filed and the fund was within weeks of being 100% legal.
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3272946&postcount=33
Or that they are short funds of becoming legal, and soliciting donations to go toward that so that can finish up in a few weeks. http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3244083&postcount=173
Then tells us that $450 is needed to complete filing so that it will finish up in weeks. http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3246689&postcount=180
Considering that it's two years later, and he tells us 2 years ago that it's weeks away is pretty irresponsible. Considering that the accounting required to make it a 501c3, and reassuring us that it was almost done when it wasn't is irresponsible. It's 2008, hundreds of posts later and it still didn't happen, even if he had the best intentions to follow through and do good, which I believe he did.
I have worked in non-profit for years, and my wife does currently. We worked for legitimate charities that struggled to raise funds, and compete with other charities. When BMWs actions result in responses like this
I can't help but be a little POed when the generosity of someone gets wasted when there are so many ways that money could do some good. When the fund started, I offered to donate to JeffBass28 directly because I didn't want to risk beauracracy absorbing the money based on past experiences. He declined for accountability sake, and I never wound up donating to the fund for fear something like this would happen.
Based on the facts, we can't prove that BMW meant any ill harm or scam TB. We also know that people have been helped immensely by him. But in terms of the Musician's Relief Fund, it sure doesn't looks like he was acting responsibly with the money. I consider people's trust and money to be a serious matter, and too serious to act this irresponsible with.
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