My guitar Player is Drowning Me

[FretNoMore]

Black Metal at a church i wrong....apparently.

I would think that depends on what church it is.

 

[woodyng]

In the late '60s I remember how it was a novelty (to me) to hear music played so loud. Even into the early '70s I accepted it. By the '80s I didn't always want it so loud, even less in the '90s and 2000s. By now at age 65 I just won't play with guys who hurt my ears, especially just for practice or fun. If the band is too loud I'll mention it. If no one wants to turn down then I'll move on. I don't go for the idea that just because it's rock, or whatever, that it has to be deafening. I certainly get into my rock CDs while driving without them being that loud.

Am I alone?

Nope. It seems like i am always playing with guitarists who,having subjected themselves for so long to hearing-loss playing volumes,are unable to even conceive of the idea of playing at a reasonable volume. I still have managed to avoid tinnitus,and mostly wear hearing protection,which i hate to have to do,in order to preserve what's left of my 61-year-old ears. I think possibly heavy-handed drummers are even worse. All my little pep tAlks about dynamics seem to be falling on (of course!) deaf ears.....

 

[Sixgunn]

Oh realize that both exist, but just never at the same time in the same place. An actual Death Metal band performing in an actual sanctioned Southern Baptist church will never happen and is wrong.

I don't even like death metal and I agree that it will most likely not happen, but what's "wrong" about it?

 

[Korladis]

The whole "Rock music is just loud; deal with it" notion is just a cop out. Sometimes a little discipline and sensitivity to one's surroundings are in order. One-dimensional players who can't or don't know how to throttle it down for situations where it is appropriate are the bane of my musical existence. Trust me—I used to be that guy, and I am grateful to the people who tolerated it when I used to do it, who had faith that I would eventually get it. However, it did cost me dearly on many an occasion; I just didn't realize it until years later.

And I think "if you need ear plugs, you're too loud" is a cop out, as well as an arrogant example of the judgmental tendency on talkbass for everyone to think that their musical situation is universal and should apply to everyone else, regardless of how different what they're doing is from what other people are doing.

The whole "you're too loud!" crowd has been ignoring a big part of what we've been saying. I don't always rehearse so loud that I need ear plugs. It depends on the band and what the norm of the genre is.

For my doom metal band, I take it as a matter of course that I will need ear plugs at rehearsal and especially at shows. High volume is the norm in the genre. It is expected and desired by those who go to see shows in the genre.

For my folk/rock band, if I have to use ear plugs at rehearsal, I tend to be a little annoyed, because I don't consider that to be appropriate for the genre.

Many of the folks on your side of this argument I think have this image of people who play in loud bands, in loud genres, as high school idiots who dime all their knobs and then blaze away without regard to anything else that's going on, when in fact that is very far from the truth, and not at all what those of us on the other side of the argument have been saying.

Also, just because a band's loudest louds are at dangerous volumes does not mean that they never use dynamics.

when one's surroundings is a loud rock band what do you do?

I still don't understand what the issue is. if everyone in the band is on the same page volume wise, have the gear and ear protection what is the problem?

we practice loudly, we gig loudly.

We are an original band from Canada without a vocalist and don't tour. We've been together for 6 years with no lineup changes or drama and independently released 3 records that have all been well received. The band revenues are enough to pay for recording and vinyl plus a little more that we can usually put towards the next album. All things considered, i don't think we're doing anything "wrong".

Exactly.

Catapult has been together for... about three years now. We've put out an album, not on self-made CD-Rs, but an actual vinyl record (available in two different colors, as it happens), and cassette, professionally made. The only lineup change we've had since I joined at the start of the band is in the drummer position. We rehearse and gig at volumes where ear plugs are advisable. So do most of the bands that we play live with, because that's the genre we're in. We're actually not particularly loud for our genre. Sea of Bones, one of the best bands we've played with, is much louder, actually.

The way we rehearse works for us. We take rehearsal seriously. It's work on music time, not party time (though it is fun).

Sometimes, for some people, the sheer thought of someone else doing that which they do not feel comfortable with, puts a bucket of sand in their manties. This drives them to legislate their values on others.



I would say that even this is dependant on what kind of music you are playing. In a doom band, if there are vocals, they may not be the center of the music.

Exactly. My approach to sound in my doom band is not the same approach that I have when playing folk/rock, or playing bluegrass, or anything else. And yeah, while vocals are important in Catapult, they're not the most important thing going on, and that's fairly normal for this genre.

Rehearsal time should be used to LISTEN to make sure everyone has their parts down, to make sure everyone starts and stops at the right time, to make sure bass and kick are in the pocket, to make sure vocals and harmonies are tight,
to make sure bass part is not stepping on the vocal, that the guitarist is leaving room for other supporting musicians.

If your rehearsals seem more like bowling night for self interested wankers, find another band.

See, there you go assuming that just because we're loud, we don't listen to each other. We do. This seems to be a common assumption on the "if you need ear plugs, you're too loud!" side.

At rehearsal I am constantly listening. Mostly to what the drums are doing so that we stay tight as a rhythm section, and also to the guitars, to hear how the parts are fitting together. We have complicated instrumentation... drums, bass, two guitars, and another member who plays keyboards sometimes and third guitar sometimes. So we very much are listening to each other.

Though, with what we play, I don't really have to make sure not to step on the vocal line, as the vocal line is usually written last, after everything else, in our band.

As I said, it isn't party time, it's time to work out our new songs (though a lot of the initial writing is done outside of rehearsal) and flesh them out, as well as to rehearse finished songs and older songs and keep our set tight. When we have shows coming up, we run through the set, timing it as well (which means no goofing off between songs). We don't take ourselves as people very seriously, but we take what we do together, our music, very seriously.

Yes, we are loud sometimes. It comes with the territory when you play in a doom band. That doesn't mean we are "self-interested wankers."

Some times. Some times I cook 10 gallons of soup at a time, so that much pepper is appropriate.

The point is, just because you dont prefer something, doesnt mean it isnt good for someone else. You are trying to align others with your subjective opinions. Which isnt going to work, because even though you cant understand someone elses opinion and hold your own, others can manage that task.

There is a time and place for everything, and everything can be well done in the right context. And sometimes that is just bawls loud.

It really depends on the dish, too, doesn't it? A ton of pepper is appropriate to some things, not to others.

And yeah. I'm not saying that everyone should rehearse at high volumes. Obviously for some musical contexts it doesn't make any sense to do so. But to say across the board that nobody should is just silly.

When you cook food, do you use the entire bottles of salt and pepper? A unique sound that stands out isn't based on all your volume all the time. Those days were over in the 70s. The OP's guitar player needs to work on his tone. More power is the easy fix, not the one that makes you great.

It depends what I'm cooking. Some dishes call for a lot more pepper than others.

Also, assuming that just because when a band is loud, they're really loud, does not mean that they play at that volume all the time.

Our songs often go between quiet, to about regular/medium loudness, to very loud, then back to quiet, back to loud again, and quiet again, all in one song (while the first album was just one long song, the stuff we're doing now is more songs in the range of 8-12 minutes).

Go to any show or watch any concert DVD.
Watch the women.
What are they doing? They are singing the lyrics and hopefully shakin' it!

It depends on the genre.

Sartori,

Fine, you like to play loud. I get it. You are allowed to like what you like.

Here's where we part ways. Lets go back to the OP's original problem. (Does anyone remember that after all the rest of this BS?) The OP is not in an incredibly loud band. Not all of the band has the gear to even play all that loud. He has an incredibly loud guitar player and drummer. Two guys in that band seem to not give a rats booty whether or not they can even hear the rest of the band. Clearly, if the OP can't hear himself, they can't either. By not backing off, they are proving that they simply don't care what the entire band sounds like. They only care what they individually sound like. To plow through at "stadium volumes" during rehearsal, when (at present) the bass player can't keep up with those volumes, proves that they are on an ego trip. Period.

Sure, if the OP wants to stay in the band, he needs to come up with the gear to keep up. He's working on it. For those two douchebags not to back down in rehearsal until the OP can catch up volume wise proves they have the musical maturity of my 5 year old daughter. She has a guitar. She holds it and bangs it as loud as she can. #$%& music. She just wants to be loud. (In her case, it's cute......... because she is five years old.) For those guys, it isn't cute. It is proof that they are going to do what pleases them no matter how that affects the rest of the band. Are they getting anything accomplished at those rehearsals? Are they tightening up the band if they can't even hear everyone in the room? (Answer: No. Of course not.)

So, play loud if you want. Go nuts. But if some members of the band couldn't care less what the rest of the band is doing, that is a musical maturity problem. As long as you are all working as a unit, fine. If not, what exactly are you accomplishing? (Answer: exactly nothing)


As for whether or not something can be "wrong" in music...... Let one of your very own band members play about 450 WRONG NOTES during one show, and then come back and tell us how awesome it was because he was doing his own thing. Let him go off on a "jazz odyssey" while the rest of you are playing a well-organized song and then come back here and tell me what isn't "wrong".

Given that the OP seemed to like my earlier responses, I would say that we're at least somewhat on the same page, actually.

He plays in a metal band. Metal is loud. And yeah, he does play in a loud band. If the rest of the band is loud, and you're not, you're a quiet guy in a loud band.

As to assuming that his bandmates don't care about hearing him... think about the cabs involved. How far away is everyone from their cabs? The OP plays through a 1x15, and the guitarist plays through a 4x12. Sunn 412L cabs do not have the top two drivers angled up. So the guitarist quite well could be hearing the OP (though probably not enough), and not actually hearing much of his own mids and highs, if both of them are standing right next to their own rigs. That's one of the main reasons I prefer my 2x15 over my 1x15. Not necessarily just to be louder, but because the 2x15 has a driver closer to my ear level, so what I'm hearing is more like what the rest of the band (or, at shows, the audience) is hearing, since our ears are on our heads, not the back of our knees. The guitarist likewise could think his volume is just fine because most of it is actually shooting past his legs, not towards his ears. I have played shows with my 1x15 where I could barely hear myself, or even couldn't hear myself at all due to it being a small stage and standing near the drums, only to later find out that I was killing the audience.

I even used that 1x15 with the doom band (mainly because I don't care about clean). When standing next to it, I couldn't hear myself, but standing far away from it like everyone else was doing, I could actually hear it pretty damn well.

Also, as stated before, we are talking about one rehearsal where there were volume balance issues with the guitar being too loud (and the OP has mentioned that before the guitarist traded up to his current rig, his old one couldn't really keep up). There also seems to be this repeated assumption that the guitarist is "diming it." It is a red herring, as the OP mentioned that the guitarist's volume was on about 2. Now, we all know that knob position doesn't correlate exactly to volume, but "diming it" means something specific... turning it up all the way. Which the guitarist wasn't doing.

Assuming that the guitarist and drummer are "douchebags" because the OP couldn't hear himself well during one rehearsal is uncalled for. They play in a metal band, so yes, it's loud. Yes, OP needs to talk to his band about the volume balance issue and how to make it so everyone is happy with both the overall level and the mix. But that doesn't mean his bandmates are "douchebags." In fact, they're probably his friends.

As to things being "wrong," in music. 450 "wrong" notes are only "wrong" if they are not how the band has mutually agreed that the song goes. During writing the song, there is no such thing as a "wrong note," only degrees to which the band members like or dislike that note in that particular spot in the song.

Leave Cookie Monster out of this.

Finally, something we agree on.

Understand this.
Out of 100's of thousands of bands, less than 1% succeed even after landing a contract with label support.
1%

For every amateur wannabe, you are up against artists who do want it bad enough and are willing to bust their butts
against all odds to make it.

They may start with whatever gear they can throw together, but as the act matures, everyone in that band is expected
to have professional and reliable gear and a professional attitude to go with it.

You can listen to people consumed with impressing beginners with gotcha smart ass rips or someone
who had 7 labels show up at their first New York showcase when he was 19.

It depends what you count as "success."

And that is highly genre dependent.

As is what sort of gear and volume is considered professional. If you show up to a doom metal band's rehearsal with a rinky-dink rig and then whine that everyone else is too loud, especially if they're as loud as they've always been... you're the one who is being unprofessional, not them.

What we do isn't about "impressing beginners." Nor is it about making this our full-time job, as if we wanted to do that, we'd be a cover band (not saying that in a bad way; it is a fact of the music scene that good cover bands are much more able to fully support the people in them financially than originals bands, even if the originals bands are good, most of the time).

Here's a band that includes a talkbass member, in the genre I've been talking about. While it's hard to gauge how loud it was there by video volume, notice how quiet the cymbals are in comparison to how loud you'd expect them to be.



That's the 013 Venue in the Netherlands, in the biggest room of such, which holds a little over 2000 people. I would say that they are pretty successful, not "amateur wannabes."

I beg to differ, I used them back around 1979 myself. "Norton" brand even had the musician's type that attenuated somewhat flatly like the Hearos and Etymotic ones around today. There were certainly the foam type available in any drug store. I still use the generic fit ~$15 ones today .

Good to know. So good ear plugs really do date back about 35 years.

Most or all places we play have sound level meters and may even automatically cut the power if it's too loud. I think a lot of people play way louder in their rehearsal places where there are no such limiters than what they could ever do at a live gig. Combine that with playing in a small room with bad acoustics, standing right next to the speakers and you quickly have stupid dangerous sound levels, and also no way of hearing what and how you and your band mates are playing.

No place we are likely to play has that, because no place like that would be stupid enough to book a show of three or four bands connected with the local doom metal scene.

Rehearsal spaces can be very loud, actually... because as mentioned, the drums are as loud as they are, and you're in a more enclosed space.

As to the "no way of hearing what and how you and your band mates are playing," that is flat-out incorrect. Many bands that play loud are also mindful of hearing the whole band. The two louder guitarists in my band (the keyboard player/third guitarist plays in a different tuning, and usually plays higher parts, which are more easily heard, so he doesn't need to be as loud) always stand a few feet away from their rigs so that they can hear the whole band more clearly, and also hear how their rigs actually sound.

Let's recap...

The OP needs a bigger bass rig.

The OP's guitar player needs to balance his volume with the rest of the band, whatever that is.

Volume wars are bayud, m'kay?

Some people just like to play loud, and that's that.

Some people just don't like to play loud, and that's that.

Playing loud without hearing protection is not the smartest thing a person could do.

Did I miss anything?

Nope. Thanks for your sanity.

 

[electracoyote]

This turned into an earplugs thread. Which is obviously good advice that seems to give some posters license to lecture, insult, and write a book on the subject.

However, earplugs do nothing to fix the mix and the disparity between instruments that are too loud or too soft. If levels aren't checked, you're still going to hear a messed up, disorienting mix with ear plugs.

I'll say again: The drummer, or whichever instrument is unamplified, is the threshold, the standard for the overall volume level in the room or on the stage. If you, or any combination of instruments collectively, are diminishing the presence of the drummer or drowning it out, those instruments are too loud. I've been in many situations where I looked over at the drummer flailing away like mad, and I could barely hear him.

Likewise, if you are listening for the other musicians and singers, and one of them is noticeably louder than the rest, or noticeably quieter, levels need to be adjusted (which goes both ways; I've seen many musicians who didn't have enough volume to be audible alongside the drummer). I think a lot of volume issues stem from one or more musicians in the room not listening for, and not caring if they hear, the rest, and assuming all is well if they can hear themselves way above all else.

This is completely independent of wearing earplugs.

 

[buldog5151bass]

I don't care what equipment he is using, or what genre of music he is playing, if the guitarist (or any other musician) cannot control their volume, they shouldn't be in a band. I'm tired of excuses.

 

[Korladis]

This turned into an earplugs thread. Which is obviously good advice that seems to give some posters license to lecture, insult, and write a book on the subject.

However, earplugs do nothing to fix the mix and the disparity between instruments that are too loud or too soft. If levels aren't checked, you're still going to hear a messed up, disorienting mix with ear plugs.

I'll say again: The drummer, or whichever instrument is unamplified, is the threshold, the standard for the overall volume level in the room or on the stage. If you, or any combination of instruments collectively, are diminishing the presence of the drummer or drowning it out, those instruments are too loud. I've been in many situations where I looked over at the drummer flailing away like mad, and I could barely hear him.

Likewise, if you are listening for the other musicians and singers, and one of them is noticeably louder than the rest, or noticeably quieter, levels need to be adjusted (which goes both ways; I've seen many musicians who didn't have enough volume to be audible alongside the drummer). I think a lot of volume issues stem from one or more musicians in the room not listening for, and not caring if they hear, the rest, and assuming all is well if they can hear themselves way above all else.

This is completely independent of wearing earplugs.

The bolded is what I've been saying for the whole damn thread.

 

[bassboysam]

This turned into an earplugs thread. Which is obviously good advice that seems to give some posters license to lecture, insult, and write a book on the subject.

However, earplugs do nothing to fix the mix and the disparity between instruments that are too loud or too soft. If levels aren't checked, you're still going to hear a messed up, disorienting mix with ear plugs.

I'll say again: The drummer, or whichever instrument is unamplified, is the threshold, the standard for the overall volume level in the room or on the stage. If you, or any combination of instruments collectively, are diminishing the presence of the drummer or drowning it out, those instruments are too loud. I've been in many situations where I looked over at the drummer flailing away like mad, and I could barely hear him.

Likewise, if you are listening for the other musicians and singers, and one of them is noticeably louder than the rest, or noticeably quieter, levels need to be adjusted (which goes both ways; I've seen many musicians who didn't have enough volume to be audible alongside the drummer). I think a lot of volume issues stem from one or more musicians in the room not listening for, and not caring if they hear, the rest, and assuming all is well if they can hear themselves way above all else.

This is completely independent of wearing earplugs.

I agree, but why do you assume that if the band is loud that someone is not being heard? we can hear our drummer just fine along with everyone else in the band. the drummer will let us know if we're causing him to play harder than he likes. at the same time he'll also tell us to turn up if he's having trouble hearing us over the drums.

playing loud doesn't mean you can't communicate with each other or make suggestions. at least it doesn't in our band and I feel sorry for you if it does. that's not the type of environment I would want to be a part of.

 

[electracoyote]

I'll say again: The drummer, or whichever instrument is unamplified, is the threshold, the standard for the overall volume level in the room or on the stage.

The bolded is what I've been saying for the whole damn thread.

It really is the crux of the issue, along with "you should be hearing all your band mates, and if you can't, or you can hear some at the expense of the others, that needs to be addressed."

It's that simple.

I have read so many posts here on TB from distraught bass players who say no one listens to the bass line, so they turned all the way down as an experiment, and another musician told them they sounded great. What?!?!?! Musicians who live with that reality need to grow some stones and address it, in a diplomatic way. If not corrected, for me, that situation falls squarely in the realm of "deal breaker." I work my butt off to play music in a combo and to be heard and appreciated. I'm not a prop.

And this is totally independent of genre. I can't think of any style of music where it's appropriate for one musician to play at a volume that makes him deaf to what's going on around him.

Or, as has been suggested, just plain deaf.

 

[electracoyote]

I agree, but why do you assume that if the band is loud that someone is not being heard?

I don't think I said that.

we can hear our drummer just fine along with everyone else in the band. the drummer will let us know if we're causing him to play harder than he likes. at the same time he'll also tell us to turn up if he's having trouble hearing us over the drums.

playing loud doesn't mean you can't communicate with each other or make suggestions.

I think we're on the same page.

 

[two fingers]

I don't even like death metal and I agree that it will most likely not happen, but what's "wrong" about it?

Ha! Somebody got to you good. If we even have to have a "serious" discussion about why Death Metal in a Southern Baptist Church is "wrong" then we're too far apart to ever come together. We'll just have to agree to disagree....... a lot.

 

[Sid Fang]

I have read so many posts here on TB from distraught bass players who say no one listens to the bass line, so they turned all the way down as an experiment, and another musician told them they sounded great. What?!?!?!

I've definitely worked with guitarists who sounded best in the mix turned all the way down.

 

[electracoyote]

I've definitely worked with guitarists who sounded best in the mix turned all the way down.

lol

Me too, but that's a different topic.

 

[Korladis]

I'll say again: The drummer, or whichever instrument is unamplified, is the threshold, the standard for the overall volume level in the room or on the stage.



It really is the crux of the issue, along with "you should be hearing all your band mates, and if you can't, or you can hear some at the expense of the others, that needs to be addressed."

It's that simple.

I have read so many posts here on TB from distraught bass players who say no one listens to the bass line, so they turned all the way down as an experiment, and another musician told them they sounded great. What?!?!?! Musicians who live with that reality need to grow some stones and address it, in a diplomatic way. If not corrected, for me, that situation falls squarely in the realm of "deal breaker." I work my butt off to play music in a combo and to be heard and appreciated. I'm not a prop.

And this is totally independent of genre. I can't think of any style of music where it's appropriate for one musician to play at a volume that makes him deaf to what's going on around him.

Or, as has been suggested, just plain deaf.

Yep. We rehearse loud, but we can all hear each other.

In fact, a couple weeks ago, at rehearsal, the mix was off at first, and so after the first song we rehearsed, the drummer mentioned that he couldn't hear us as well as usual, so we adjusted our volume until the mix was right again. Yes, it was at a volume where wearing ear plugs is advisable, but it was a good mix.

 

[Sid Fang]

lol

Me too, but that's a different topic.

Not necessarily. The bassist you heard complain about being complimented on his sound when it wasn't there could be in the same category.

 

[Korladis]

Ha! Somebody got to you good. If we even have to have a "serious" discussion about why Death Metal in a Southern Baptist Church is "wrong" then we're too far apart to ever come together. We'll just have to agree to disagree....... a lot.

What if it's death metal that's about Jebus?

 

[electracoyote]

I don't care what equipment he is using, or what genre of music he is playing, if the guitarist (or any other musician) cannot control their volume, they shouldn't be in a band. I'm tired of excuses.

Eventually, it comes to this. I agree with the advice that a band should have a good non-confrontational heart-to-heart about the realities of volume levels first. Some people just don't naturally get it.

But I have seen people quit and get fired over it.

 

[Sixgunn]

Ha! Somebody got to you good. If we even have to have a "serious" discussion about why Death Metal in a Southern Baptist Church is "wrong" then we're too far apart to ever come together. We'll just have to agree to disagree....... a lot.

Now you're not even making sense.

 

[electracoyote]

Not necessarily. The bassist you heard complain about being complimented on his sound when it wasn't there could be in the same category.

Indeed.

But I was hoping the volume discussion could proceed without impugning anyone's actual skill level. The volume issue alone is obviously quite complex, even if it needn't be.

 

[hsech]

Pretty much all the people who have been arguing that it's fine to rehearse loudly if that's what works for your band have also recommended wearing ear plugs... which you didn't use in your youth, apparently.

We do. So no, I won't be sorry. Because my hearing won't be any worse than in an average old guy. Since, apparently unlike you, I never felt that my ears were indestructible. Not that I'm all that young.

I wasn't asking for your sympathy so get off your high horse. I was stating a fact.