earplugs or quit maybe?
earplugs
we wear earplugs at practice, are we too loud? judging by a lot of comments here, yes. But we know what we are doing, you can hear everyone clearly and we know how to EQ and postion our rigs to get a good mix. It's just as important to practice getting the right mix as it it to practice playing songs. We've gotten quite good most sound guys at shows just turn up the volume on the board, no need for him or her to tweak anything and most comment on how easy a band we are to work with because we have our shvt together.
not everyone plays a gig every week. so for some, practice is the gig and we want to be able to use our gear and have fun. Unless the band is your only source of income then who cares? just have fun with it and use hearing protection.
once again, earplugs. i got my custom molded earplugs at Costco for $150, I have the choice between -25db and -15db filters. typically the 15s do the trick.
Everything said here.
Although I am a big fan of such things just to make a point, what is so damn difficult with a chat with the guy?
In all seriousness - if you cannot find your playing level volumewise in a band, how do you even dare to think you can FUNCTION as a band?
Yeah, all the guys suggesting passive aggressive tactics to try to get the guitarist to turn down just make me shake my head.
If you want the guitarist to turn down, you need to actually
tell them that.
Well, I guess if you protect your ears, and all members have the equal volume capability, and the neighbors don't get pissed, and the cops don't show up, well, then ok...lol
I've just had the opposite experience too many times.
If the cops show up, they'll be waiting a while if they don't have key cards. The rehearsal studio my band uses has a gated parking lot. I doubt the chop shops near the studio would call, anyway.
Do ya'll play gigs that require concert-level volume? Certainly practice doesn't. My rule is to play only what is needed by everyone. And if your amp and speakers are too much then you must come down in volume to match the rest of the band. (So why carry around too much equipment if you don't need it, right?). So, talk to the guitarist about it, or the band leader. The last band I was in that had too much stage volume didn't work out for me. After talking and explaining what I need as the bassist nothing got better. So, I fixed the problem and quit. Now the band I'm in makes a point not to play any louder than we need to. And the guitarist is also a bassist, so he understands what I need, including not having the kick drum too loud or deep, not to mention the harrassment a keyboardist's left hand can wreak. Most non-bassists haven't a clue what their sounds do to the bass line. Talk.
Um... yes, gigs require concert volume. Since, you know, that's what they are.
That's a really weird question. Why would we not play concerts at concert volume?
Were you setting your band levels to the drummer when your guitar player had a smaller amp? Did the drummer start playing louder when the guitar player got a bigger amp? I'm not real sure what the size of the practice room have to do with anything unless it has good acoustics. I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm trying to understand what you are saying.
The room size thing: the room is small, and drums are loud. Quite frankly, if you practice in a small room with a rock drummer who uses sticks (as opposed to brushes or rods), and who hits at all (as opposed to lightly touching the drums).... you are kidding yourself if you think it's not damaging your hearing, because it is.
And no, gear size hasn't really changed. One guitarist went from quarter-stack to half-stack, though still using his 30 watt head, the other has always used his 50 watt half-stack. Drums are not particularly loud as doom metal drums go, but they are loud enough that standing near them with no ear plugs is not good for the ears, and we are loud enough to match.
We are louder, by a bit, at shows, but we get a pretty good mix at rehearsal. Yes, we wear ear plugs, because we're not idiots and we know that this genre can be dangerous to unprotected ears. It works. So why is it your business?
Hoo-boy...
Seems to me like there's a whole lot of projection going on here - unless of course the above contributors are the OP's band mates. The facts as he has stated them are:
- OP and guitarist are in a band playing a loud metal genre.
- Guitarist had been playing through a practice amp too small for rock work with a live drummer.
- Guitarist pulled off an amazing trade of practice amp for slightly broken (1 channel dead, possibly mismatched volume pot) Sunn. It's the only amp he now has.
- Guitarist brings new amp to practice the first time and is too damn loud.
This is utterly normal. I don't see any assholery or "express purpose to dominate" or huge ego in this. I see no reason to turn this into "guitard" bashing. I didn't didn't see the OP say that he and the rest of the band asked him to turn down and he refused, even once. It's human nature when you've been drowned out for weeks to crank it just to see what it feels like. It's also hard to get levels right on a half-stack in a small rehearsal space - they beam like crazy. Firing the guitarist after one rehearsal with an amp he hasn't mastered seems disproportionately harsh.
Yep. No power play at work here. The guitarist only has one amp. Talkbass's old fogies are overreacting, as usual.
A band that plays to the limits of its equipment never sounds good. Period.
Incorrect. I've seen many good bands that were playing on equipment being pushed pretty damn near the limit, and sometimes at it.
Quite a few amps sound their best dimed. The whole reason that people get low wattage tube heads (which are fairly popular in the Amps section) is to be able to push them to their limits more easily.
I have played with some pretty hard-hitting drummers, but there has always been more than enough amperage firepower in the room to render the drummer absolutely inaudible if we didn't exercise a little restraint.
I fail to see the point of burying the drummer in rehearsal, or any other member of the band for that matter, regardless of genre or how hard you think you have to rawk to be credible.
If you are listening for your band mates (as you should be) and having trouble hearing them, while simultaneously hearing yourself loud and clear, that is a problem. Levels need to be addressed. This often applies to stage volume as well, depending on room size and PA configuration.
If you don't listen and don't give a damn about hearing all your band mates, that is a problem. Do everyone a favor, quit the band thing and do a solo gig.
Who said anything about burying the drummer? Depending on the drummer and how much space you have, matching the drummer's level very well could require the use of ear plugs to avoid hearing damage.
So it is literally a 'power' trip, that is fine but it's pretty bad advice for the vast majority of musicians who want to progress as a band, and you can expect resistance whenever you suggest that it isn't a problem.
It is a problem to the OP, that is why he asked the question...
No, it is your failure to grasp the norms of genres and situations besides your own. For some, high volumes are part of the genre. The OP was asking how to upgrade and be heard. OP plays in a metal band, and so is probably okay with high volume.
How to mix your selves on stage/ in rehearsal
1. Bass drum volume = bass guitar volume. Yes, it seems low. It is. Suck it up. This is a team sport.
2. snare volume= lead instrument volume. Yes, its kind of loud, its supposed to be, suck it up. This is a team sport.
3. accompanying instruments under lead/snare. This is also where the lead should be when not the focus of attention. Yes, it seems low. It is. Suck it up. This is a team sport.
4. Vocals Uber Alles. Unless you're Earthless.
Eh, I think it depends how various things are EQed.
lol come on, you are making things up to justify wanting to play loud. That is why I am poking the holes....
If you want to play loud and can, fine! Seriously it is fun sometimes! But just say so without the made-up rationalizations about art and the essence of rock and roll being the abuse of your equipment...
It is bad advice for most bands. And most ears.
It's not "abuse." Just hard use.
You're not poking holes, only demonstrating that you really don't get either the genre the OP is playing in or the one that the bassist you're responding to plays in.
High volumes are expected in those genres. They are, dare I say it... appropriate. While my own band does not rehearse quite as loudly as we play live, we are still relatively loud at rehearsal. Partly it's because we set our volume to the drummer, and, well, that is what it is (he does actually play with quite a lot of dynamics... just matching the louder part of his dynamics means that it's a volume high enough that ear plugs are advisable... which is really no big deal to us). Another reason is that we want to be already familiar with what our mix sounds like at high volume, and how much feedback there is, etc.
It works for us, and soundguys actually tend to like us, despite our unusual instrumentation. Usually we play shows with other very loud bands, so it's not like it's inappropriate to the context.
I'm sure this has been said before, but:
your guitarist is using a Giant Rock Concert Hall Sized Amp for Rehearsal.
tell him to turn the heck down, or, bring a practice amp to practice.
Ain't no one got time for that.
With all due respect, Chef, the OP said that the guitarist traded his previous amp plus cash for his new one. He can't bring a practice amp, as he only has this one.
OK, I understand you have this whole "let's all just get along" thing going. And I actually admire that. But this statement right here is utterly ridiculous. There are lots of things "wrong" in music. Lots of them. I could type all day.
Death metal in a Southern Baptist Church?
Nazi war anthems at a Jewish wedding?
Banging away on a low F# while the rest of the band is playing an F major chord sweetly?
Hiring Kenny Rogers in stead of Paul Rogers to front Bad Company?
Wrong, wrong, wrong and all kinds of wrong.
(Although I would pay lots of money to see the last one.... but still..... wrong.) Sometimes the whole hippie idea of "I'm OK. You're OK." is just ridiculous. Playing at stadium volumes at practice is one of those times. Period. In fact, playing at any volume level that requires everyone in the room to wear earplugs is just dumb. That's like dumping too much chili powder into a chili on purpose just so you can go back later and do something else to make it less hot. Why bother being that loud to begin with if everyone is going to have to wear ear plugs? Dumb. Just dumb. And, oh yeah, wrong.
Glad I could clear that up for you.
If you need anything else, I'll be glad to help.
The first two are just the wrong context (a southern baptist church instead of a rock club, for the first, and a Jewish Wedding instead of a history documentary about the Nazis and how terrible they were, for the second).
The next one might actually be really interesting. Dissonances can be musically very interesting.
The last one... not that into Bad Company, so it's not really relevant.
People on talkbass love to bash people playing at "stadium volume." Sometimes I don't think those who do go to enough shows to know what stadium volume actually is.
Not all of us play with soft-handed drummers who use brushes at rehearsal. Ear plugs are always in my base case, and I've had to use them at folk rock band rehearsals when we were on a really acoustically bad room and I was standing next to the drummer. The way people talk, it's like they see it as somehow shameful to wear ear plugs, when really it's smart.
Things do not sound or feel the same quietly without ear plugs as they do loudly with ear plugs. I'm so tired of seeing that ridiculous soundbite on here. Go see a doom metal band live (but bring ear plugs). If your tastes run old fashioned, see one of the more trad, bluesy based ones. If you still think it would be exactly the same experience at 70db instead of 90, well... you're wrong, just wrong.
gee thanks for being the arbitrator, but you are wrong.
In a rehearsal,regardless if someone just bought a new toy, the volume does not need to be loud. You don't need to have to wear earplugs at rehearsals. If we can't comment coz we aren't the OPs bandmates,what makes you so special? I have permanent hearing loss of over 50% due to loud drummers and guitarists,so I beg to differ with your opinion. Is that ok by you? Thank you.One day you will meet good musicians and realise that you can indeed rehearse at low volumes.
If you don't wear ear plugs at rehearsals and you're in a rock band with a drummer who plays like he's in a rock band, you are damaging your hearing.
And no, you don't have permanent hearing loss due to loud drummers and guitarists. You have hearing loss because you couldn't be bothered to wear ear plugs. They are your ears. They are your own responsibility to take care of. Drummers and guitarists didn't destroy your hearing... you did.
Yep. Unless the drummer is using brushes, I have ear plugs in regardless of the genre. Anyone who tells you they play quietly enough to not damage their hearing with out the use of ear plugs is either not using amplification, or is ignorant of what it actually takes to hurt your ears.
That said, I think it is cute that there are guys out there that cant dominate their guitards in the mix.
So much this.
I think a lot of people on here are greatly underestimating how loud even reasonable, straight ahead rock drumming is.
Death metal bands are wrong everywhere, I think that is the point
Lots of people on here play in metal bands, including death metal bands. They're not "wrong" just for playing in a different genre than you.
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