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My HORRIBLE Alleva-Coppolo experience...
- Thread starter Addison
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This is one thing I really dislike about the TB community. The OP has a legitimate gripe and it is good to have a place where it can be made public where it will help this get resolved. But the angry mob mentality with the mean and threatening emails is way overboard.
Wow, people actually sent threatening emails? How douchey. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Bunch of children.
THIS!!
This whole thread will index tomorrow afternoon and probably propagate into google results no later than Wednesday.
I'm curious as to Jimmy's side of things. I'd like to think that we, as a community, can find some common sanity for a few moments. It's Sunday. I'd bet he didn't even know about this thread (which does not infer that he didn't know about the problem with the OP!) to late today. Can we back the f*** up and at least give him a day or two to respond? To make things right?
There's some wisdom in not casting the first stone. These some brilliance in not joining the rock fight until clear resolution has been offered. Or not.
Yeah thats really not cool. I'm all for the OP getting refunded and taken care of but for people to threaten Jimmy like that before his side is ever presented...not cool at all. One of the posts on his Facebook before they were taken down was talking about how TB was 5% legit players and 95% immature gear snobs. Sending threats and degrading emails like that just makes TB look bad as a community, and I'm sure we'd all like that not to happen. Lets just support the OP like adults...
I owe Jimmy a small debt of gratitude. When he had a shop in NYC (before he was a builder) he bought many copies of my first, self published, book The Chordal Approach. When many shops were buying 1 or 2 copies, he'd buy 10 at a time. I have only seen Jimmy a time or two since then.
One of the post important posts here was Brad Johnson's. He stated that this was a "dream bass purchase."
Unless you actually make your living playing bass (and a really good living at that), spending 5K for an instrument is so much more than going to GC and picking a bass off the shelf. It is an experience of a lifetime, one to be cherished. Searching for just the right instrument, building a relationship with a builder, who you believe cares as much for you, as you do for their work. Dealing with a person who you believe is invested in the build not the $. The anticipation of opening that case the very first time and forever being able to associate yourself with that bass and that builder.
Let me reiterate these builders are, yes, building basses but are really SELLING AN EXPERIENCE. Everyone of them needs to realize this.
In my long and winding career as a full time working musician, I have had the wonderful opportunity to represent 3 different bass companies (Fodera, MTD and now Zon). I have a personal relationship with each of the builders and consider them friends. I've gone the distance in trying to support them as they have supported me (and I did pay for all my basses).
Developing those relationships, I believe are the same kind of relationships that we all want with boutique builders. Damn, we want to put THEIR image in our avatar, not our own.
Builders who forget this are risking their business.
That being said, I also tend to agree with Jauqo. TB is really a very small representative of the bass community. This might sting but it will not hurt. Hopefully Jimmy realizes the larger context of selling a 5K jazz bass and work with the OP to make it right.
One of the post important posts here was Brad Johnson's. He stated that this was a "dream bass purchase."
Unless you actually make your living playing bass (and a really good living at that), spending 5K for an instrument is so much more than going to GC and picking a bass off the shelf. It is an experience of a lifetime, one to be cherished. Searching for just the right instrument, building a relationship with a builder, who you believe cares as much for you, as you do for their work. Dealing with a person who you believe is invested in the build not the $. The anticipation of opening that case the very first time and forever being able to associate yourself with that bass and that builder.
Let me reiterate these builders are, yes, building basses but are really SELLING AN EXPERIENCE. Everyone of them needs to realize this.
In my long and winding career as a full time working musician, I have had the wonderful opportunity to represent 3 different bass companies (Fodera, MTD and now Zon). I have a personal relationship with each of the builders and consider them friends. I've gone the distance in trying to support them as they have supported me (and I did pay for all my basses).
Developing those relationships, I believe are the same kind of relationships that we all want with boutique builders. Damn, we want to put THEIR image in our avatar, not our own.
Builders who forget this are risking their business.
That being said, I also tend to agree with Jauqo. TB is really a very small representative of the bass community. This might sting but it will not hurt. Hopefully Jimmy realizes the larger context of selling a 5K jazz bass and work with the OP to make it right.
Nothing to do with TB. It is well known as the crowd effect. A group's collective IQ is inversely proportional to the amount of people that compose it.
Nothing new here. You know, burn that witch, kill the referee and all this stuff.
Add internet anonimity to the whole thing and you get more stupidity than one can possibly conceive.
I feel much the same way as others in this thread. I don't know Jauqo and certainly mean him no disrespect, but whether or not this will hurt AC as a business is irrelevant IMO. The issue is whether Jimmy will fix the mess the OP is dealing with like a decent human being. I've read a few posts from Jauqo now reiterating his position that this is a drop in the bucket - fine, I'm sure it is, but he's oddly not mentioned anything about how brutally inappropriate the OP's situation is. Who cares if AC will continue to happily sell basses, I want to know if he'll deal with THIS bass.
I'm with the camp that word travels. I'll be keeping an eye on the situation, but honestly until things are made right I will caution anyone I know (and I know a few folks) to stay far, far away from this builder.
(Edit: I'd like to believe that I've thought about this, and because I'm unhappy with this situation doesn't mean I'm a sheep with low IQ who simply follows the "crowd mentality". I have no problems disclosing who I am and what I think based on given information.)
I'm with the camp that word travels. I'll be keeping an eye on the situation, but honestly until things are made right I will caution anyone I know (and I know a few folks) to stay far, far away from this builder.
(Edit: I'd like to believe that I've thought about this, and because I'm unhappy with this situation doesn't mean I'm a sheep with low IQ who simply follows the "crowd mentality". I have no problems disclosing who I am and what I think based on given information.)
agree w/that last part. but people who are really researching don't seem like worshipers to me.
the thing about the testimonials is it takes a lifetime to build a good reputation, but that reputation can be destroyed in a blink.
Witch hunt.
One TB member suggested "burning his house and slashing his tires".
I got lambasted a dozen times by page three for suggesting the concept of "due process".
The builder should make it right, but "burn his house and slash his tires"? Are you guys gonna sell white pointy masks and tailored sheets on Talkbass Bazaar soon?
As much as i despise lawyers, i have to admit im happy that our legal system has judges and defense lawyers etc.
They are a necessary adjunct to human irrational mob mentallity.
One TB member suggested "burning his house and slashing his tires".
I got lambasted a dozen times by page three for suggesting the concept of "due process".
The builder should make it right, but "burn his house and slash his tires"? Are you guys gonna sell white pointy masks and tailored sheets on Talkbass Bazaar soon?
As much as i despise lawyers, i have to admit im happy that our legal system has judges and defense lawyers etc.
They are a necessary adjunct to human irrational mob mentallity.
Sending threatening emails to "support" the OP is so uncool, wrong, and classless. The OP made it clear that he was only making this public out of frustration, and I for believe you get, most of the time, a lot more response when you are positive with a frustrating situation rather than being a ranting a*hole. You catch more flies with honey than with a brick... I did look at his Facebook page and saw a few comments criticizing him for the situation but nothing that I would consider bad or threatening.
Honestly, I'd never heard of this builder until this thread, literally, but I'm not in the market - nor will I ever be - for a boutique bass in this price range. I'm not a pro player or someone that is playing bass to make my living... and buying something like this makes no sense whatsoever - I'm also a cyclist and see a lot of people riding carbon bikes that cost well above $5000 but it doesn't make them a better rider... on bicycles, anything priced above about $1500 is just about ego and shaving a few grams off of bike weight when its far cheaper to lose a pound or two of body weight to improve your cycling performance. The bike makers deliver some amazing machines in that price range... and that's not to say a $5000 bass can't or isn't an amazing instrument. But for 5 grand, you ought to be getting an amazing bass when there's so much market competition and excellent instruments available for a lot - a LOT less money. You can buy 2 to 2 1/2 Stingrays or a G&L for that kind of cash and your resale market is a lot bigger if you don't bond with the bass. A crappy boutique bass is about as useful as your appendix if it doesn't play well, has cosmetic issues, etc because it will have NO market value. You might as well have gotten a wad of $20 bills and fed 5K worth into camp fire.
My earlier point about customer service though still stands, though. You make it right. Sometimes things go wrong for whatever reason. I totally understand his "no returns" rule, and that should apply to any high quality product that goes out the door and you get a finicky customer. Still, you make it right. For someone who is offering an expensive boutique product, your reputation is all you've got, and its only enhanced if people know you'll make the situation OK because a dog got out of the shop. It happens. Other posters opinion that Jimmy will "ride this out" probably is larger correct IF this is a rare instance, but just because its rare doesn't mean that its OK to treat a customer like poo when you sell 'em poo.
And as has been pointed out, in the internet era, anyone that has a private business of any kind is put in the difficult position - and I'm good friends with a small business owner who reads the Yelps and gets very distressed about negative reviews when its obvious that you've got a customer that has issues - but since this person is busting their butt spending 12+ hour days 5-6 days a week at the business, they don't have time to respond to every single asshat that posts something negative that isn't true - anyway, complex sentence aside a small business owner is put in the difficult decision of balancing their rep over the demands of trying to make a living keeping their business running or responding to Internet chatter over a single transaction. I don't know Jimmy personally but looking at the website he's juggling building a lot of instruments all the time... I can see a dog or two escaping the situation when its a perfect storm.
So Jimmy, if you are reading this thread, your reputation is everything. Even when a customer isn't right, but pictures don't lie (unless they've been shopped). Refund the money, recycle the bass. Making an exception to the no returns rule only *enhances* your reputation, and a smart future business decision - if you know a bass has issues, don't sell it!
Honestly, I'd never heard of this builder until this thread, literally, but I'm not in the market - nor will I ever be - for a boutique bass in this price range. I'm not a pro player or someone that is playing bass to make my living... and buying something like this makes no sense whatsoever - I'm also a cyclist and see a lot of people riding carbon bikes that cost well above $5000 but it doesn't make them a better rider... on bicycles, anything priced above about $1500 is just about ego and shaving a few grams off of bike weight when its far cheaper to lose a pound or two of body weight to improve your cycling performance. The bike makers deliver some amazing machines in that price range... and that's not to say a $5000 bass can't or isn't an amazing instrument. But for 5 grand, you ought to be getting an amazing bass when there's so much market competition and excellent instruments available for a lot - a LOT less money. You can buy 2 to 2 1/2 Stingrays or a G&L for that kind of cash and your resale market is a lot bigger if you don't bond with the bass. A crappy boutique bass is about as useful as your appendix if it doesn't play well, has cosmetic issues, etc because it will have NO market value. You might as well have gotten a wad of $20 bills and fed 5K worth into camp fire.
My earlier point about customer service though still stands, though. You make it right. Sometimes things go wrong for whatever reason. I totally understand his "no returns" rule, and that should apply to any high quality product that goes out the door and you get a finicky customer. Still, you make it right. For someone who is offering an expensive boutique product, your reputation is all you've got, and its only enhanced if people know you'll make the situation OK because a dog got out of the shop. It happens. Other posters opinion that Jimmy will "ride this out" probably is larger correct IF this is a rare instance, but just because its rare doesn't mean that its OK to treat a customer like poo when you sell 'em poo.
And as has been pointed out, in the internet era, anyone that has a private business of any kind is put in the difficult position - and I'm good friends with a small business owner who reads the Yelps and gets very distressed about negative reviews when its obvious that you've got a customer that has issues - but since this person is busting their butt spending 12+ hour days 5-6 days a week at the business, they don't have time to respond to every single asshat that posts something negative that isn't true - anyway, complex sentence aside a small business owner is put in the difficult decision of balancing their rep over the demands of trying to make a living keeping their business running or responding to Internet chatter over a single transaction. I don't know Jimmy personally but looking at the website he's juggling building a lot of instruments all the time... I can see a dog or two escaping the situation when its a perfect storm.
So Jimmy, if you are reading this thread, your reputation is everything. Even when a customer isn't right, but pictures don't lie (unless they've been shopped). Refund the money, recycle the bass. Making an exception to the no returns rule only *enhances* your reputation, and a smart future business decision - if you know a bass has issues, don't sell it!
There is a difference between criticizing the OP for posting this clearly necessary thread, and condemning those who are allegedly making threats. I believe the OP is clearly within his rights to do what he did here. If any threats are being made (which has yet to be proven here) then those people should be ashamed of themselves.
Regardless, the OP has handled himself professionally in this manner and this thread should remain open.
Exactly. Bolded is what its all about. I tend to believe the OP gnashed and tossed and thrashed and felt he had no choice but to go public with the issue to get it resolved. If there really is a "No returns no matter what" policy that doesn't deal with the issue of dog instruments or one's that had more issues that was described to the original buyer, the attitude allegedly displayed by the builder is deeply disturbing vis-a-vis this particular instrument sale.
Whether or not this lone incident will impact his business isn't the issue, but I WILL contend that it by rights, should. Not long term, but enough to keep the builder in check...you know, to keep the great from getting complacent with their wares, or cavalier with their building (and business) practices...lest A-C get added to the "builders who went downhill" style threads in the future. Either way, up to this point all we have is a now tarnished perception of the company. We aren't owed an explanation (only the OP is), but it'd be cool if he did, regardless of it swaying opinion. But...
Sending threatening emails to him is just plain not cool.
Neither are witch-hunts.
Neither is discounting the TB community as 5% this and 95% that... all of a sudden the whole is discredited by the few. I know this last part isn't necessarily the view of A-C but the summation of one of his supporters, but still....equally catty and unnecessary...does there REALLY need to be an us vs. them mentality? Also to that end, we shouldn't pedestal ourselves so high here as to proclaim TB the tastemakers of the industry either.
Addison, again, truly unfortunate these turn of events, I hope Jimmy can see through the peripheral static and base his resolve with you based on the merits of your interaction and not the leaning on and badmouthing through the ether.
And I hope it's a positive resolve for you as well, and one day soon receive that incredible dream bass (regardless of the builder).
Sending threatening emails to him is just plain not cool.
Neither are witch-hunts.
Neither is discounting the TB community as 5% this and 95% that... all of a sudden the whole is discredited by the few. I know this last part isn't necessarily the view of A-C but the summation of one of his supporters, but still....equally catty and unnecessary...does there REALLY need to be an us vs. them mentality? Also to that end, we shouldn't pedestal ourselves so high here as to proclaim TB the tastemakers of the industry either.
Addison, again, truly unfortunate these turn of events, I hope Jimmy can see through the peripheral static and base his resolve with you based on the merits of your interaction and not the leaning on and badmouthing through the ether.
And I hope it's a positive resolve for you as well, and one day soon receive that incredible dream bass (regardless of the builder).
I know many want to hear from Jimmy. But from someone who represented a manufacturer here on TB, I will tell you this - it is a lose/lose proposition. Jimmy should handle this privately and quietly - but handle it, he should
Wow, my $200 Yamaha bass looks great compared to that.
You got him by showing this on TB. With a membership of over 100,000
this could ruin his business.
You got screwed.
You got him by showing this on TB. With a membership of over 100,000
this could ruin his business.
You got screwed.
Demand a refund. Then sue him for pain and suffering. Then spam his Facebook. Then slash his tires. Light his house on fire til it burns to the ground and then piss on the smoldering ashes!
^^^ there it was. From AudioDiadact.
I dont recall blasting the OP for starting
This thread- but ill "auto retract" if
I did. Addison is a victim. Its "support" like the above which is unacceptable. Im surprised it passed the moderator, but moderators are people too.
I had hoped I'd never read a thread such as this on TB. From beginning to it's (eventual) end - the purpose of the OP's post has been a study in distortion. Yet, this should have never been allowed to happen. There will be consequences from this to deal with...and that's all I have to say about that.
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