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NA SAYERS
- Thread starter Zigman
- Start date
Here why: Two mis-matched cabs cannot put out exactly the same output of SPL across the desired frequency spectrum. (If they did, they would not be mis-matched at all, they would be matching!) One will be stronger, the other weaker.
Here's a simple example:
Cab X has an average SPL across the measured range of 100 dB.
Cab Y has an average SPL across the measured range of 100-n dB. (n being the difference from Cab X)
So a stack of Cab X + Cab Y is 100dB + 100-n dB = 103-n dB (remember, we are dealing with logarithms)
But a stack of Cab X + Cab X is 100dB + 100dB = 103dB.
103dB > 103-n dB!
That doesn't make it not a crapshoot in all other instances. Also, what is good to one may not be the same to another. Also, while a database thread of provenly good combinations would be useful to those into mixing, and has been attempted in the past, it would end up, well, swarmed by the cab cops in no time.
Finally also, a recommendation for an x+y stack typically fails to include something to the effect of "mind you I have tried x+x and y+y and they (objectively) don't sound as good."If you change the sign to "+" the mismatched stack would be louder. Same thing if you compare X+Y to Y+Y. You did say "always"...
Whilst my recommendation to an Acme Low B2 user looking for more volume would be the same as yours, i.e. "either get an identical one or ditch it and look elsewhere entirely", it's also worth noting that the matched stack would very probably be less loud than a mixed one of one Acme plus pretty much anything else of that size. Now would it sound as good? Statistically (carelessly thrown science jargon, I do it all the time), there's a good chance it would not.
- Dec 21, 2007
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- Lark in the Morning Instructional Videos; Audix Microphones
"Crapshoot" - a roll of the dice. Not "shooting turds".
Many examples reported to sound good. Many more reported to sound not-as-good-as-matched cabs.
With matched cabs you know what you're getting. With mixed, you don't until you try that particular combination.
Hence "like rolling dice".
Passinwind
I know nothing.
- Dec 3, 2003
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- Designer/Toaster Tech @ Passinwind Electronics
Because depending on other people's reports on the Interwebs so often leads to unpredictable results, especially given the highly subjective nature of the beast?
Cab makers do it all the time. They hire cabinet designers that specify a driver and cabinet dimension. Over time that same drive may not be available and somebody in purchasing buys a batch of other drivers from a low bidder. Or the cabinet size and materials are changed. What may have been a carefully designed and manufacturer cabinet originally, 5 years later is a Frankenstein brought about by bean counters.
As far as measuring speakers, one can buy a measurements mic for as little as $10 for a smartphone, and buy an app that will do full measurements. There isn't a single bass cabinet manufacturer that actually publishes measurements and charts on their cabinets. Contrast that to FOH where a manufacturer can't make a sale unless they do publish measurements.
"Reported to sound good" = Anecdotal Testimony
It would have to be repeatable, measured, falsifiable, ... as observed in nature to be scientific.
For example in the 90's for Cold Fusion, somebody reported it worked, yet nobody else was able to duplicate it.
All the hearing studies throughout the decades Have figured out what sounds good and bad to humans under a bell curve. You can bet Harman and other serious audio companies draw on all this research and studies as a starting point. They do a lot of modeling and prototyping, and end with another double blind test.
A bass player grabbing cabinets and essentially designing a "speaker system" would have to be extremely lucky to pick an arrangement that worked as good as all the science used by the industry leaders. It's a total gimmick for a manufacturer to even say a player can mix and match cabinets at will - they manufacturer has not tested every combination and has not published any measurements to say they have. Gimmick.
Same can be said for matched.Because depending on other people's reports on the Interwebs so often leads to unpredictable results, especially given the highly subjective nature of the beast?
Passinwind
I know nothing.
- Dec 3, 2003
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- 46,062
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- Designer/Toaster Tech @ Passinwind Electronics
Not if you already have one cab and like it though. Or at least I've never encountered anyone who was in that position and added a second matched cab and came up unhappy. Link Removed
I'm all about experimentation. I have just learned to expect 90% of everything to be crap. YMMV, vive la difference.
That doesn't make it not a crapshoot in all other instances. Also, what is good to one may not be the same to another. Also, while a database thread of provenly good combinations would be useful to those into mixing, and has been attempted in the past, it would end up, well, swarmed by the cab cops in no time.
If you change the sign to "+" the mismatched stack would be louder. Same thing if you compare X+Y to Y+Y. You did say "always"...
Whilst my recommendation to an Acme Low B2 user looking for more volume would be the same as yours, i.e. "either get an identical one or ditch it and look elsewhere entirely", it's also worth noting that the matched stack would very probably be less loud than a mixed one of one Acme plus pretty much anything else of that size. Now would it sound as good? Statistically (carelessly thrown science jargon, I do it all the time), there's a good chance it would not.
You missed the logic part. In an unmatched cab scenario, one cab will be able to put out more SPL. Whether it's Cab X or Cab Y is irrelevant. In your suggestion of changing the operator to '+', thereby making Cab Y 100+n dB, then just add another of Cab Y.
Adding another one of the cab with the highest SPL will always be louder than adding one with less SPL. Always. It can't be any other way.
Now, I know what you are thinking. If someone already has HoHumBlaster cab and wants more SPL, he can either buy another HoHumBlaster, or get the WayHugeMthrFkrBlaster to make his full stack. If he buys another HoHumBlaster, fine. If he buys the WayHugeMthrFkrBlaster to complete his full stack, the
Again, this was in response to someone earlier whose goal of making a full stack was just to add more SPL. Real world situations are never that clean and easy. If the guy gets a second cab that offers hugely more SPL, then his first cab will barely, if at all be heard, and any theoretical increases in SPL will be masked by acoustic interference (combfiltering and phase shifting). He'd be better off just using the new higher SPL cab alone. IOW, why hobble a great cab by running a less than great cab with it.
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not at all if the question is ''I love my X, what cab do I add to my X to make for a bigger rig?''. It's the opposite of crapshoot to recommend another X. Anything else is a crapshoot unless it's from one of the few makers paying due care and attention, and even then it's likely to be a power handling mismatch.
Which is not what you wrote, conveniently quoted in my post above (#100). Matched always trumps mixed*? Always? Nope, sorry. One of the two possible matched stacks will be quieter than the mixed one.
Then again, the higher SPL might not be "hugely more", the first cab might still audibly contribute and not perforce only destructively, speaking of which the phase problems might be limited, and the mixed stack might still be louder and/or more pleasing to the ear than just the louder cab pushed more.
Lots of mights and ifs? For sure. Hence my joining the crapshoot choir. Which is still a sounder argument than any "this and that will surely happen" bogeymen that still creep in these threads, even if then there's nearly always one good cop feigning innocence and declaring "nobody here said anything other than it's a crapshoot".
To be clear, even if there should be no need to, I don't mix and don't advocate mixing. In its most extreme form - buying a mixed stack in one fell swoop - it's sheer folly to me. But OTOH I don't believe the mixing-inclined should be bullied and terrified for their own good, to protect them from themselves. The info is out there, but it's ultimately their call.
*volume-wise - this was the original claim (EDITed for clarification)
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Actually no, it can't. The results of using two matched cabs are not unpredictable. If you, say, have two 2x15 cabs that are exactly the same, using both of them will sound pretty much like using one of them, except louder.
unlikely. You could get close by vertical stacking but nobody but the Grateful Dead goes to that effort.
Radically toe in side by side gives two mid hot zones with a heap of lows everywhere unless you EQ down.
In 4x15 square mode it's severely combed mids everywhere.
