Natural ability??

[sayman]

I agree, I learned a lot from this thread and found a new interest in epigenetics.

If I got a little frustrated here and there I apologize to those concerned. I wasn't born perfect, I guess (lol).

Happy Holidays to all.

 

[Ant Wellington]

That's WAY too many syllables for a bass player!

ep·i·ge·net·ics

That's 5 syllables dude! We're gonna' hafta' revoke your 'bass playa' card!

There's a 3 syllable limit on words for bass players. One syllable for drummers!

You probably actually know what a Neopolitan 6th chord is. Or a Tone Row. Or the notes above the 5th fret.

Your giving us a bad name ;0)

peace,
anthony

 

[sayman]

I confess, I copied+pasted it from Wikipedia.

 

[sayman]

'Neopolitan 6th chord" - is that like the ice cream?

 

[Ant Wellington]

Exactly like the ice cream but with 6 flavors instead of 3!

-aw

 

[Anonymatt]

That's a nice thought, Anthony. I remember performing in an old folks' home at Christmas when I was in the high school jazz band. It was a really nice experience and they got into it. I understand today that that was a generation of folks that knew how to get into live music.

 

[Jerry Ziarko]

I agree with almost everything said through this entire thread. Most are opinions, and we are free to believe what we believe. I've always looked at music and art as a bit different than say mechanical things like hitting that tennis ball 100,000 times. Take playing any instrument, there is a mechanical side to it that ONLY can be "mastered" through very long, and intense hrs, if not years of practice. I believe someone like Victor, for example, could have played any instrument of his choosing at the same level he does bass, simply by his inner drive and dedication. I also believe there is a side to music and art, that I see as vision. Some say talent, I say vision.
Take two very young children, who have been exposed to much of the same environment, and hand each a crayon and a piece of paper. Tell them both to draw. One might scribble back and forth, while the other is able to draw a picture that is quite good. I don't know where that comes from, nor do I pretend to, but one clearly has a different way they see things. Again, take several small children, show them a flower and and them to draw it. We all know what that experiment would bring. Some would be amazing, even for someone so young, while others would look like I drew them, even at age 53.
So where does that difference come from? Can it be measured through science? I see it as vision, or what I call talent. Of course you could take the children with the best pictures, and with hard work and study, they may become very good artists. Take the people who draw like I do, and I just don't see things the same way.
My wife is a very "talented" artist, and has been from a very early age. Give her a bunch of scrap and she will turn it into something beautiful. We've often talked about that over the years. She says she sees the finished result before she starts. I see scrap. She never had training of any kind with woodworking. I would go further in saying, she never used any power tools other than a power screwdriver. She took a scroll saw I had lying around, and one day made some amazing pieces to accent our front door. She didn't learn this. She had an idea, got some wood scraps and a couple of hrs later made some "art" that was amazing.
Maybe it's part of being spiritual, or believing God indeed does give us each "special" gifts, but I truly believe in innate talent. What we each choose to do with it, and the degree we cultivate it, is a whole other thing.

Perfect-

But I do think we all have different levels of deduction and reasoning and memory.

 

[dsanders]

I agree with almost everything said through this entire thread. Most are opinions, and we are free to believe what we believe. I've always looked at music and art as a bit different than say mechanical things like hitting that tennis ball 100,000 times. Take playing any instrument, there is a mechanical side to it that ONLY can be "mastered" through very long, and intense hrs, if not years of practice. I believe someone like Victor, for example, could have played any instrument of his choosing at the same level he does bass, simply by his inner drive and dedication. I also believe there is a side to music and art, that I see as vision. Some say talent, I say vision.
Take two very young children, who have been exposed to much of the same environment, and hand each a crayon and a piece of paper. Tell them both to draw. One might scribble back and forth, while the other is able to draw a picture that is quite good. I don't know where that comes from, nor do I pretend to, but one clearly has a different way they see things. Again, take several small children, show them a flower and and them to draw it. We all know what that experiment would bring. Some would be amazing, even for someone so young, while others would look like I drew them, even at age 53.
So where does that difference come from? Can it be measured through science? I see it as vision, or what I call talent. Of course you could take the children with the best pictures, and with hard work and study, they may become very good artists. Take the people who draw like I do, and I just don't see things the same way.
My wife is a very "talented" artist, and has been from a very early age. Give her a bunch of scrap and she will turn it into something beautiful. We've often talked about that over the years. She says she sees the finished result before she starts. I see scrap. She never had training of any kind with woodworking. I would go further in saying, she never used any power tools other than a power screwdriver. She took a scroll saw I had lying around, and one day made some amazing pieces to accent our front door. She didn't learn this. She had an idea, got some wood scraps and a couple of hrs later made some "art" that was amazing.
Maybe it's part of being spiritual, or believing God indeed does give us each "special" gifts, but I truly believe in innate talent. What we each choose to do with it, and the degree we cultivate it, is a whole other thing.

Perfect-

Well said.

 

[sayman]

I agree with almost everything said through this entire thread. Most are opinions, and we are free to believe what we believe. I've always looked at music and art as a bit different than say mechanical things like hitting that tennis ball 100,000 times. Take playing any instrument, there is a mechanical side to it that ONLY can be "mastered" through very long, and intense hrs, if not years of practice. I believe someone like Victor, for example, could have played any instrument of his choosing at the same level he does bass, simply by his inner drive and dedication. I also believe there is a side to music and art, that I see as vision. Some say talent, I say vision.
Take two very young children, who have been exposed to much of the same environment, and hand each a crayon and a piece of paper. Tell them both to draw. One might scribble back and forth, while the other is able to draw a picture that is quite good. I don't know where that comes from, nor do I pretend to, but one clearly has a different way they see things. Again, take several small children, show them a flower and and them to draw it. We all know what that experiment would bring. Some would be amazing, even for someone so young, while others would look like I drew them, even at age 53.
So where does that difference come from? Can it be measured through science? I see it as vision, or what I call talent. Of course you could take the children with the best pictures, and with hard work and study, they may become very good artists. Take the people who draw like I do, and I just don't see things the same way.
My wife is a very "talented" artist, and has been from a very early age. Give her a bunch of scrap and she will turn it into something beautiful. We've often talked about that over the years. She says she sees the finished result before she starts. I see scrap. She never had training of any kind with woodworking. I would go further in saying, she never used any power tools other than a power screwdriver. She took a scroll saw I had lying around, and one day made some amazing pieces to accent our front door. She didn't learn this. She had an idea, got some wood scraps and a couple of hrs later made some "art" that was amazing.
Maybe it's part of being spiritual, or believing God indeed does give us each "special" gifts, but I truly believe in innate talent. What we each choose to do with it, and the degree we cultivate it, is a whole other thing.

Perfect-

These are good questions - much of the answers are in the books Anthony recommended, as well as a couple I found illuminating as well.

Outliers: The Story of Success
The Genius in All of Us: New Insights into Genetics, Talent, and IQ
Epigenetics: The Ultimate Mystery of Inheritance

 

[BassyBill]

From a scientist's point of view, I'm aware that almost every quality we possess as people is influenced by genetic variation. That's why I believe there is such a thing as a predisposition for some people to acquire and develop some skills easier than others.

That said, I'm in total agreement with all the guys that have pointed out that hard work is what enables dedicated people to fully realise the talents they are lucky enough to possess.

 

[Octavian]

I'm posting this for those who are interested in learning more about the topic...not to change anyone's mind. It's an analysis of this recent op-ed in the NY Times:

"Invalid Link Removed"

Cal Newport, a professor at Georgetown University, has been a strong proponent of deliberate practice and takes the op-ed authors to task on a few points:

"Is Talent Underrated? Making Sense of a Recent Attack on Practice"

Shared in the spirit of sharing knowledge.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I'm not sure I'd spend too much time wondering about natural talent or whatever. I'm sure a lot of us saw the Jaco video where Jerry Jamont ask him how he aquired his ability. Jaco said two words.. "hard work".

Bill Evans said in an interview that he never had much talent, so he really had to work at his piano playing. This is from one of the greatest jazz pianists who ever lived....

I think most people tend to confuse someone's personal desire to accomplish something with natural ability. It makes another person's great achievement easier to understand.

Bottom line is that hard work and focus on the "right stuff" will work for anyone as long as they have the ability to assimilate the information. Making sense of the objective is the only talent requirement, not perfect pitch, or long fingers or three toes whatever external thing people like to attribute success to. It's about getting valid information and then putting in enough seat time to understand it, however long that may take.

In 7 years of playing, Scott LaFaro pretty much redefined the role of the jazz bass. But even Scott LaFaro had teachers. It wasn't about natural talent and he wasn't just making stuff up. He was just driven and so he practiced an incredible amount. From what I've read, it's pretty much all he did. 8 - 12 hours and more per day. Every day. Without fail. He learned the basic principles and applied them. So when he decided he wanted to hear something different, he had the facility to know how to change what he wanted. He absorbed the information so well that he was able to see it differently than everyone else. That's when people call you a genius.

My 2 cents...

 

[sayman]

I'm not sure I'd spend too much time wondering about natural talent or whatever. I'm sure a lot of us saw the Jaco video where Jerry Jamont ask him how he aquired his ability. Jaco said two words.. "hard work".

Bill Evans said in an interview that he never had much talent, so he really had to work at his piano playing. This is from one of the greatest jazz pianists who ever lived....

I think most people tend to confuse someone's personal desire to accomplish something with natural ability. It makes another person's great achievement easier to understand.

Bottom line is that hard work and focus on the "right stuff" will work for anyone as long as they have the ability to assimilate the information. Making sense of the objective is the only talent requirement, not perfect pitch, or long fingers or three toes whatever external thing people like to attribute success to. It's about getting valid information and then putting in enough seat time to understand it, however long that may take.

In 7 years of playing, Scott LaFaro pretty much redefined the role of the jazz bass. But even Scott LaFaro had teachers. It wasn't about natural talent and he wasn't just making stuff up. He was just driven and so he practiced an incredible amount. From what I've read, it's pretty much all he did. 8 - 12 hours and more per day. Every day. Without fail. He learned the basic principles and applied them. So when he decided he wanted to hear something different, he had the facility to know how to change what he wanted. He absorbed the information so well that he was able to see it differently than everyone else. That's when people call you a genius.

My 2 cents...

+1

 

[ras1983]

I just want to say that I agree with the targeted practice idea, because it's something that my teacher had me doing for a couple of years and my abilities imrpoved exponentially in that time. Everything from technical exercises, to rhythm exercises, to interval training; the targeted practice allowed me to develop a lot faster than if I had just played along to songs and learned them (which has it's own benefits, but that's another thread).

I've seen lot of friends who's idea of practice is to play the same riffs and licks over and over, a lot of which they can already play. Their time would be better spent doing an exercise that, for example, allows them better count the subdivisions or move around the fretboard more fluidly.

 

[henry2513]

I'm not sure I'd spend too much time wondering about natural talent or whatever. I'm sure a lot of us saw the Jaco video where Jerry Jamont ask him how he aquired his ability. Jaco said two words.. "hard work".

Bill Evans said in an interview that he never had much talent, so he really had to work at his piano playing. This is from one of the greatest jazz pianists who ever lived....

I think most people tend to confuse someone's personal desire to accomplish something with natural ability. It makes another person's great achievement easier to understand.

Bottom line is that hard work and focus on the "right stuff" will work for anyone as long as they have the ability to assimilate the information. Making sense of the objective is the only talent requirement, not perfect pitch, or long fingers or three toes whatever external thing people like to attribute success to. It's about getting valid information and then putting in enough seat time to understand it, however long that may take.

In 7 years of playing, Scott LaFaro pretty much redefined the role of the jazz bass. But even Scott LaFaro had teachers. It wasn't about natural talent and he wasn't just making stuff up. He was just driven and so he practiced an incredible amount. From what I've read, it's pretty much all he did. 8 - 12 hours and more per day. Every day. Without fail. He learned the basic principles and applied them. So when he decided he wanted to hear something different, he had the facility to know how to change what he wanted. He absorbed the information so well that he was able to see it differently than everyone else. That's when people call you a genius.

My 2 cents...

I wish I had the time to practice that much. LOL I have to do all kinds of crazy stuff to squeeze in my three hours during weekdays, like waking up at 5 am.

 

[phillybass101]

I am 55 years old and have been playing at the bass since I was 15. Up until recently my attitude was....Like Steven Wright says... In school they taught us that practice makes perfect, and nobody's perfect, so I stopped practicing. However, throughout all of these years, as soon as I got home from work or school, the bass never left my hands. It was stuck to me like glue. At this stage in my musical development, I have played my way into meeting cats of a different caliber. Guys who take their craft seriously and who study it, work it , live it. Sometimes it gets to be exhausting and I have to turn it off cause at this stage of the game I'm not giving up my day job (Sr. Computer Systems Analyst) to turn pro. Nevertheless the bass is always in my hands and now I'm practicing a little bit and studying a little bit. Maybe I'll turn pro when I retire from this computer gig. I only have 7 more years for this but will play my bass until I die.

 

[phillybass101]

One thing I have noticed, myself included. Bass players have some funky looking thumbs. I wonder if thats innate or from years of playing Haha!!!

 

[darkstorm]

Of course. Soem people have a born with talent to do better at music. Just like some will be better at algebra rather then geometry. Everyone can develope music skill, just as everyone can learn algebra or geometry well enough to pass math class test for that. But some will excell at geometry while some do better with algebra. Some people are more artistic and some are more athletic. Either kind of person can develope some skill at either, but their naturally going to do better at the area their more inclined toward as in born with ability.

Some people when asked what their fave two senses are, are going to say sight and one other. Some will say sound and one other. Often times people who get along well with each other will have one of the two senses in common, and sometimes both. Some people are more able to do abstract thinking then others.

Those who do really really well with music on average will more often orient to teaching themself. Not being much concerned with so called proper technique, instead they will naturally do things as is easiest for them movement, posture, and so on wise. They will also more orient to creating original music rather then just trying to learn other peoples stuff. They also will not be so concerned with trying to sound like someone else voicing and expression wise. Instead they will most often orient to creating their own voice will at the vbery least will be somehting like: "I like this players bass playing and want something like that but with this or that change to it".

People who arent very musically inclined imo are the ones who ask questions like" "whats the best bass for metal?" "What bass should I get", and other questions with no real direction or indication of any personal research done. These folks are also more inclined to do setups by the numbers using factory specs and calipers or other measuring devices rather then doing their setups by feel sight and sound.

Non musical people are also more inclined to stay within the boundaries of preconceived limits for what an instruments role is or how its played as well. The fingers only never play with a pick crowd for example is imo less musicalloy gifted people then those who realize either fingers or pick is fine.

Musically inclined people pick up and stay with music for musics sake. Others become musicians to pick up girls or for other reasons not much related to having a natural passion and connection to music.l If you have trouble with rythum, your not musically inclined imo. You can develope rythum sense but you arent as musically inclined as someone who has great rythum sense even without having taken any lessons and who picks up rythum things with little effort.

 

[sonofabass]

Rhythm. I'm sorry. Couldn't help myself.

 

[sayman]

Of course. Soem people have a born with talent to do better at music. Just like some will be better at algebra rather then geometry. Everyone can develope music skill, just as everyone can learn algebra or geometry well enough to pass math class test for that. But some will excell at geometry while some do better with algebra. Some people are more artistic and some are more athletic. Either kind of person can develope some skill at either, but their naturally going to do better at the area their more inclined toward as in born with ability.

Some people when asked what their fave two senses are, are going to say sight and one other. Some will say sound and one other. Often times people who get along well with each other will have one of the two senses in common, and sometimes both. Some people are more able to do abstract thinking then others.

Those who do really really well with music on average will more often orient to teaching themself. Not being much concerned with so called proper technique, instead they will naturally do things as is easiest for them movement, posture, and so on wise. They will also more orient to creating original music rather then just trying to learn other peoples stuff. They also will not be so concerned with trying to sound like someone else voicing and expression wise. Instead they will most often orient to creating their own voice will at the vbery least will be somehting like: "I like this players bass playing and want something like that but with this or that change to it".

People who arent very musically inclined imo are the ones who ask questions like" "whats the best bass for metal?" "What bass should I get", and other questions with no real direction or indication of any personal research done. These folks are also more inclined to do setups by the numbers using factory specs and calipers or other measuring devices rather then doing their setups by feel sight and sound.

Non musical people are also more inclined to stay within the boundaries of preconceived limits for what an instruments role is or how its played as well. The fingers only never play with a pick crowd for example is imo less musicalloy gifted people then those who realize either fingers or pick is fine.

Musically inclined people pick up and stay with music for musics sake. Others become musicians to pick up girls or for other reasons not much related to having a natural passion and connection to music.l If you have trouble with rythum, your not musically inclined imo. You can develope rythum sense but you arent as musically inclined as someone who has great rythum sense even without having taken any lessons and who picks up rythum things with little effort.

Scientific Research from the last 10 years or so states that people are not born with complex traits programmed into their genes - in short, they are not born with "Natural Ability".

There are many book and article references in this thread if you are interested. It is fascinating reading.