Natural ability??

[lfmn16]

Understood, I do not offer any proof in what I have stated, but I do not see how it is necessarily just a belief. I took many things into consideration that are outside of a practice regime, and included many things that could be present to define "Natural Ability," and how it could be applied to someone.

Proof is the difference between opinion and fact.

Do you happen to think otherwise? That perhaps people are just able to pick up an instrument and play it because they just can? Is it solely based on practice? Factors such as genetics and biological pre-dispositions are not so much accountable in defining natural ability?

Just curious of course

Read "The Music Lesson" by Victor Wooten and you'll know what I believe. He says it much better than I ever could.

 

[Papa Dangerous]

Proof is the difference between opinion and fact.



Read "The Music Lesson" by Victor Wooten and you'll know what I believe. He says it much better than I ever could.

Just because I said I did not have the proof, does not mean it does not exist out there. Whether it be in someone's journal, notebooks, or yet to be discovered, it does not necessary get written off so easily. xD

I will give that a read when I do get a chance. However, just because Wooten says something, does not make it true. He may be a qualified individual to pass an opinion on the matter, since he is an amazing bassist and knows about hard work and practice. However, he is not in the field of science: biology, nueroscientists, psychologist etc. Therefore, his lack of experience in that field does not allow him to comment on the possibility of nature creating a predisposition via human coding that can lead some people to have a more "natural" ability to play.

However, I will still like to read this

 

[lfmn16]

I will give that a read when I do get a chance. However, just because Wooten says something, does not make it true. He may be a qualified individual to pass an opinion on the matter, since he is an amazing bassist and knows about hard work and practice. However, he is not in the field of science: biology, nueroscientists, psychologist etc. Therefore, his lack of experience in that field does not allow him to comment on the possibility of nature creating a predisposition via human coding that can lead some people to have a more "natural" ability to play.

I said that "The music lesson" was what I believe, not that you had to believe it, or that it was true.

This thread has proved that Anthony is smarter than me. He was out of here several posts ago. I think he must have a "natural" ability to see when a thread is going no where!

I bow to Anthony's greater wisdom, and now I'm out of here.

 

[Ant Wellington]

Hee hee

 

[Octavian]

Although this topic has been beat to near-death, here's a great read about how the brain learns and adapts: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Note how feedback dictates how our subconscious operates and how we learn new skills.

 

[henry2513]

Not to beat a dead horse but:

12 Year Old Music Prodigy - YouTube

"Meet Blue Jay, probably the greatest talent to come along in 200 years. At age 12, he has already written 5 full length symphonies."

Seems to have been born with various natural abilities.

 

[sayman]

No.

 

[henry2513]

No.

No? Did you watch the video?

You couldn't have That vid is 9 mins long, you posted no more than 4 mins after I did

He's already undergone medical tests that show he has an abnormal, enhanced sense of hearing.

Started playing Cello without ever having seen the instrument. Etc.

I fail to see how that's not natural ability. Unless you believe his story is false. That's another matter entirely.

 

[sayman]

Did you read all of this post?

 

[henry2513]

Did you read all of this post?

Yes and I could care less what the rest of this thread says in regards to this particular child. If you took time to watch the video, you *might* agree.

Obviously it doesn't apply to him, unless, as I said before, you think his story is false.

I think what's in this thread applies to the 99.99% of the human population. I believe in hard work, I believe in practice, I believe in putting time in and with enough of it you can become "good"; however, there's always that .01% as is the case with this boy.

 

[sayman]

Whatever, man, believe what you want.

Not putting down the child - I will watch the video and will surely be impressed. Doesn't mean that "Natural Ability" exists, nor is this an insult to anyone's talent - quite the opposite. Truth is, people have to work darn hard for the skills they have.

Read some of the literature regarding the scientific research of the past decade or so - there are multiple recommendations in the thread.l .

Or not - most people would rather tenaciously stick to their opinions anyway regardless.

 

[henry2513]

Whatever, man, believe what you want.

Not putting down the child - I will watch the video and will surely be impressed. Doesn't mean that "Natural Ability" exists, nor is this an insult to anyone's talent - quite the opposite. Truth is, people have to work darn hard for the skills they have.

Read some of the literature regarding the scientific research of the past decade or so - there are multiple recommendations in the thread.l .

Or not - most people would rather tenaciously stick to their opinions anyway regardless.

Like I said, I agree with what's in this thread and definitely hope it's true as it applies to me. I'd hate to hope that there's a limit as to how far I can develop my musicianship and skill on the bass.

I used to believe in natural talent, I even thought I had some. When I was a kid, I went from playing simple root bass lines to playing complex jazz changes, playing Charlie Parker heads etc in about 6 months.

I thought I was talented but what I didn't consider were the 8 to 10+ hours I spent locked up in my room practicing day in and day out, non stop.

Now that I'm older and wiser and have returned to the instrument after not playing for 16 years I know otherwise. In fact, this thread convinced me to devote a serious amount of time to playing because with enough hard work I really do think I can get to where I want to be on the instrument which is at a world class level.

It's hard work and dedication for 99.99% of us in the world.

 

[Octavian]

More good info on a Berlin study of young violinists and the impact of practice vs deliberate practice: Study Hacks » Blog Archive » If You’re Busy, You’re Doing Something Wrong: The Surprisingly Relaxed Lives of Elite Achievers

 

[Mound of Sound]

Just saw this dude on CNN's website. He's trying to master golf in 10,000 hours.

Invalid Link Removed

 

[jarrydee]

I disagree and can substantiate with facts and references that things don't come easier to some. What can be substantiated is that some people work harder and longer than others. I can list a string of books and scientist who will say the same thing.

See if you can find references that say otherwise. I'll even ask that you find a great musician or athlete who is good at that endeavor for any other reason than hard work.

Don't just make a statement on your belief if you haven't done any research into the matter. I've research this very subject for the last 10 years. And like I said,...I can site references.

And I'll leave you with this quote.

"My father says that if I hit 2,500 ball each day, I'll hit 17,500 balls each week, and at the end of one year I'll have hit nearly 1,000,000 balls. He believes in math. Numbers, he says, don't lie. A child who hits 1,000,000 balls each year will be unbeatable."
-Andre Agassi

-aw

I kinda disagree, as a kid I remember walking around the house playing drums on chairs with pencils, and got my first kit at age 4, never had lessons and turned out a little better than people I know that have worked their ass off practicing and taking lessons! Same thing since I started with bass, I am teaching myself, but before learning the scales and modes I could still play any song by ear, just did not know the "science" behind it, same with guitar..maybe I just got very lucky, but I feel bad for a lot of people I know that work hard at it and still are not there yet, and I am sure they deserve it more then me to! The only thing that makes sense to me about it is that some people are born with it and some have to work very hard at it! I cant REFERENCE sites but I have seen it with my own eyes as I am sure lots of people have....I could be wrong, but I really cant remember practicing much at all, but I could play anything you threw at me if you gave me 5 minutes to listen to whatever it was..ya, I am probably wrong so please dont jump on me!! I do have a lot of practice at being wrong..

 

[Ant Wellington]

We all define mastery differently. You may consider yourself good or a master. But someone else may not. Being able to discern high and low pitches is not a musical skill. It's just a skill that can be used effectively in music. Being able to jump high isn't a basketball skill. It's a skill that can be used in basketball.

You're also discounted all of the music you've listened to and how you interacted and understood it. Two people can grow up in the same household and listen to the same music. But one of those people can take it in as a wall of sound and the other can purposefully listen for each distinct part. When they both go to learn to play an instrument later they won't music approach the same way. People who haven't 'studied' this may think that one has more natural talent. But neuroscientist will say something different. You think your music training started with you tapping out rhythms with pencils. That's OK. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. But I do highly recommend that you study anything that you have a strong opinion about. Not to change your mind. Just to make sure your educated and not just going with your gut. It doesn't make a difference if that subject is music, politics, religion, sports, math, or quantum mechanics. I value the opinion of knowledgeable people more than I do people people haven't done ANY research. Gut feelings can be right. But gut feelings should lead to research. So whenever someone has a strong opinion about things like music or politics or anything I always ask, "How much research have you done?". Most of the time the answer is none. And it can be a waste of time for a knowledgeable person to have a discussion with a person who isn't.

I'll just continue to do my research and not guess on this one. Because I know that everything effects everything else.

peace,
anthony

 

[dsanders]

No,...I don't believe people are born with any kind of natural ability. I think people are exposed to things in a deliberate way. I've been reading so many books on talent and deliberate practice that I'm convinced that hard work is the only way to achieve greatness.

But I do think we all have different levels of deduction and reasoning and memory. All of those things affect 'intelligence'.

peace,
anthony

Completely agree with Ant in this one. We are born an open canvas. The experiences we grow with are what predisposes us one way or another.

I do believe everyone is born with certain inalienable traits. The propensity to love for instance. Fearlessness, the desire to learn etc.

Interests are determined by experiences. Hard work develops those interests into skills, and greatness is only achieved by those who believe they can be great if they work hard enough to become so.

 

[Octavian]

I'm working on some post-baccalaureate studies and was surprised to learn that psychology considers temperament to be an inherited trait. I would imagine that would play a critical role in someone's success in his or her chosen endeavor. If you're a bit short on patience, you will have a more challenging journey if you are pursuing mastery of an art that requires time and sensitivity. However, that temperament type may lead itself to more of a successful fit with business.

 

[ras1983]

An interesting interview with the High Performance Director for the United States Olympic Committee:

Practice Or Genetics? Peter Vint On Youth Sports Development

In short, it's not a straight forward answer and it's a combination of practice and genetic predisposition.

FWIW, regardless of one's physical playing ability, musicality is learned and not inherent.

 

[Ant Wellington]

Just to let you guys know,...

I really appreciate all the points of view(or is it 'point if views') of all the people who have posted on this thread. I really enjoy healthy debate. And I'm glad that no one chose to be mean-spirited or resulted to name calling.

I generally stay away for forums because they've become a way for 'cowards' to express hatred and hide behind their anonymity. I was hoping that wouldn't happen with this thread. And it didn't!

I've read some interesting takes on this subject and I've gotten a lot of reading material out of this. I'm a research 'nut' and love becoming more knowledgeable about anything related to everything. Because 'everything' effects everything else. It may sound unconventional but I believe that an often overlooked way of becoming a better musician is to become a better person. Forget about whether you think you were born with natural talent or not. Go read a book and hug somebody. Get your guitar player and carry your bass and a small amp down to a nursing home, rehabilitation center or hospice and find a place in the cafeteria to set up. Play music for an hour so. It'll feel better than playing in any bar, club, studio or stadium. But be sure to call ahead to set it up with admin,...there are more volunteers than you think. Thanksgiving and Christmas is a perfect time!

AND,....

GO PRACTICE!

peace,
anthony