NBD - Chinese made 12-string

[FretlessOwl]

I'm a life long 4 stringer, so completely ignorant on these octave basses. How would a 12 string be an improvement over 8? What's the point of two upper octave strings?

In my experience, a 12 has a bit of a thicker sound and more of a natural chorus effect than an 8. I've only owned a 12 but I'd love to have both!

 

[GKon]

Boy those strings sure seem messed up. I did a bit of shuffling thinking they were just put on wrong. Here's an alternate stringing with your numbers that seems a bit more sane.

From
E: .95, .60, .40
A: .75, .45, .25
D: .60, .35, .18p
G: .40, .25, .18p

To
95 - 60 - 60
75 - 40 - 40
45 - 25 -25
35 -18 -18

That definitely does make a lot more sense.

 

[GKon]

Nice new bass, congrats!! Certainly a conversation piece

Have you tried tuning the middle string to the fifth? Given you have the gauges for it it might be an interesting experiment to play around with, i.e. EBe AEa DAd GDg? Inspiration might strike and you can always change strings later

I am also intrigued by the concept itself. How does the playing technique work? Finger style may need a lot of work to get consistency in the upper notes, but with a pick up and down strokes would have quite different characteristics, I'd reckon. How does one usually approach this?

It would be interesting to tune it that way. I wonder what it would sound like. Other TB'ers with more know-how than myself have been trying various tunings which they've written about on a different post.
Unfortunately, I've snapped one of the G octave strings, but I could try it with the remaining ones.

Regarding picking, and finger style, I find that part of it is not all that difficult once you've played for a while. I just watched this video and he discusses picking, down picking only, finger style, and even slap!


What I find more challenging, especially with such a wide neck, is fingering the strings on the frets well, making sure all 3 strings are under your fingers so you can get a clean sound.

 

[GKon]

In addition to being pricey, note that they're also for a 6-course bass (two strings per note across octaves). Yours is a 4-course bass (three strings per note across octaves, but see my next post).

I didn't notice that. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[GKon]

You got a real winner. Considering what you paid you can definitely make it work. I own an 8 string, 10 string and 12 sting.

8 and 10 have one fundamental for each set and one octave for each set. 12 has one fundamental for each set and two duplicate octaves for each set. Each set of three strings should not be all different. The bridge is not the correct bridge for a 12 as you can’t intonate properly. You should send it back.

There are clubs here for multi octave basses that you might want to visit.
Here’s davie504 playing a 12 string bass with the correct string set up.

Charles Berthoud playing a 12 string with correct string setup.


Twelve String Club - 12 String Octave - Post em'
The Multi-Course Bass Club
the official 8-String (octave courses) bass club
it appears you rushed into this without doing your homework? The excitement of something new and different can do that. You got a lot of work ahead of you. If you’re ready for it it will be a great learning experience for you.

Should be 8 separate saddles.
View attachment 5285230
12-String Bass Encyclopedia

You got a real winner. Considering what you paid you can definitely make it work. I own an 8 string, 10 string and 12 sting.

8 and 10 have one fundamental for each set and one octave for each set. 12 has one fundamental for each set and two duplicate octaves for each set. Each set of three strings should not be all different. The bridge is not the correct bridge for a 12 as you can’t intonate properly. You should send it back.

There are clubs here for multi octave basses that you might want to visit.
Here’s davie504 playing a 12 string bass with the correct string set up.

Charles Berthoud playing a 12 string with correct string setup.


Twelve String Club - 12 String Octave - Post em'
The Multi-Course Bass Club
the official 8-String (octave courses) bass club
it appears you rushed into this without doing your homework? The excitement of something new and different can do that. You got a lot of work ahead of you. If you’re ready for it it will be a great learning experience for you.

Should be 8 separate saddles.
View attachment 5285230
12-String Bass Encyclopedia

Being that my main hobby is building, and modifying motorcycles and the like, and I've been slowly but surely migrating those skills to working on basses, I don't think swapping out a bridge is something I'm too worried about.
It was worth the money I bought it for for me to then be able to do some modifications, and not worry too much if I mess something up, or if it doesn't work out.
Honestly, I'm not, at all, worried about it.

 

[GKon]

Looks like a Musicvox copy.

Yeah. As I mentioned above, I realized that after the fact.

The same seller actually sells one that looks just like the one you posted (coler, and pickguard).

 

[GKon]

I've owned 3 Carlo Robelli 8 string basses, the double cutaway, silver metalflake model. They are amazing basses. I still own one, the neck was warped so found an imported neck and converted it into a 12 string, however that neck couldn't handle the tension so it's strung with 8 strings.

Eventually, I will build a multi laminated 12 string neck for it.

Being a huge Carlo Robelli fan, I'd love to see some pics!

 

[GKon]

A 060 octave E would be significantly tighter than a 095 low E; the D and G courses would be similarly imbalanced, besides very light overall (low-octave -wise). The A course would be a better match, in comparison.

If both strings in an octave course are wound (plains are denser and tighter than equivalent wounds since they have no gaps), the gauge of the octave string is best selected as roughly half of the lower octave one.
(Per the volume of cylinder formula, one linear inch of, say, a 040 string is 1/4 the volume of a 080 one. Assuming proportional construction and same materials - the reality is possibly not the case, but close enough - this means also 1/4 of the mass, which in turns means same tension when tuned an octave apart.)

In other words, 95/46 - 75/36 - 60/30 - 40/18p would be a better match.


To quote myself,
https://www.talkbass.com/posts/28032122/
it's as if the Chinese stock gauges come with the pre-installed option of tuning each course as a 1-5-8 power chord...for which the gauges wouldn't be ideal either, though.
[Oddly enough, the diameters would be good, and not far from equal-tension, for a blues 1-b7-3 fifthless seventh chord! Which I don't recommend, mind you, but it would be interesting, in a Hendrix-at-a-fingertip kind of way.]

Re fifths tuning, IMHE power chords on bass below A don't really sound good.
(The reason is what physioacoustics calls "critical bands" - in a nutshell, even consonant intervals like perfect fifths, come the bass register, turn rough-sounding, with tones cancelling each other, past a certain point.)

What I would suggest, to somebody exploring octave-fifth tuning with their 12-string, is they try the following (slightly adjust to taste)
E2-50, B2-32, E1-105
A2-40, E3-25, A1-80
D3-30, A3-18p, D2-60
G3-20p, D4-13p,* G2-45
^ In practice, the middle string would be tuned a perfect fifth above the octave string (i.e. a perfect twelfth above the low string).
* [the .013p would either be a (hopefully long enough) guitar string, or a custom-made one.]
Alternatively, said middle strings may be replaced with fifths. Starting from the highest course, they'd be respectively D3-30 (5th of G), A2-40 (5th of D), E2-50 (5th of A). For the reasons outlined above, I would recommend against doing it (putting a ~065 B1 = fifth of low E) in the lowest course.


@GKon:
what I meant is that, even though the strings in that all-wound set are the correct length for a 34" bass, the thinnest string(s) may be too fragile for that scale and tuning.
To which propos, three related thoughts:
- I can't find that set on the S.I.T. website (both the steel and nickel 12-string set have plain 018 treble G's). Is it possible they've eventually come to share my concerns, and recently phased out the wound G?
- plain tops have an additional advantage in your case: they're stiffer than wounds (they're all-core, after all) and intonate closer to their lower-octave string, which will make intonation of the single-saddle a better - or a, uh, less worse - compromise;
- in case you try and confirm your dislike of plains, consider tuning the instrument down a whole step, to ddD-ggG-ccC-ffF. It may prove to be the sweet spot.

Your in-depth information and suggestions are always appreciated. Thank you!

 

[GKon]

I'm a life long 4 stringer, so completely ignorant on these octave basses. How would a 12 string be an improvement over 8? What's the point of two upper octave strings?

To (sort of) quote Spinal Tap, "These go to 12".

I'm not being a wise-ass. Seriously, I bought this because I always have thought they were neat, and, since I can't afford a Carlo Robelli or other higher priced model, I was willing to spend $300 to have something fun and interesting to play around with. The only improvement I can see of a 12 over an 8 string is just more depth of sound, or just a different sound characteristic.

 

[GKon]

In my experience, a 12 has a bit of a thicker sound and more of a natural chorus effect than an 8. I've only owned a 12 but I'd love to have both!

I can attest that the Carlo Robelli 8 stringers are worth it. And, they usually have a low price, so may be worth looking into?

 

[GKon]

Update on my email to the seller about the bass binding and knobs being different than the picture.

He replied telling me that this is how the factory now makes them, so they'll have to update their pictures on the ad.

He then offered me a $15 discount, and also VIP membership to his shop so I will get a discount on anything else I might buy from them in the future.
I accepted. I don't know that I will buy anything else from them, but the $15 will go towards buying the knobs I actually want.

I did ask him if they sell the strings that the bass was originally strung with. Still waiting for a reply.

 

[Smooth_bass88]

what

Hi folks,

Yesterday, I received a Chinese made 12-string bass that I bought off of eBay. The nice part about that is that it arrived in 5 days rather than 3 months as when you order from AliExpress.
Being a lover of Carlo Robelli basses, I did search the internet to see if there was a CR 12-string for sale, but I didn't see one. That being said, even if one was available, it's a bit out of my current price range at the moment. Hence my purchasing an inexpensive Chinese 12-string.

(As an aside, I find it interesting that many regard Carlo Robellis basses as nothing special, yet the 12-string version has had its value go way up over the years. Anyway, I digress.)

I've only had the chance to unbox it, tune it up, and play it for a few minutes. Here are my initial impressions.

I really like the body shape, color, and binding (more on the binding later). I also REALLY like the headstock shape. I find it interesting, especially with the cutouts, and the way the tuning pegs are mounted. I do hope it can take the added string tension as time goes on.

The neck is WIDE! Widest neck I've got on any bass. That makes sense, though. It doesn't feel bad, but I do notice the extra width. It's got a flat and thin profile, which makes it easy enough to move around on and to play all the strings. Playing all those strings, and playing them well is going to take some getting used to, that's for sure.

When tuning it up, I wasn't sure how 12-strings are typically tuned. I've since found out that the "normal" strings are tuned as normal to EADG, and the two thinner, accompanying strings are tuned one octave higher.
My two thinner strngs are of different gauges. When I tried to tune the thicker E string an octave higher, it seemed like it was putting way too much tension on the string and that it would snap. So I tuned it at the same octave as the normal E string. This makes it too floppy, though.
I did the same with the rest of the thicker of the two accompanying strings. Those are not too floppy.
I'll play around with it and see if I can retune them all an octave higher.

Fret work is good. No buzzing, no sharp ends. However, fret sprout tends to be the norm here in Albuquerque, so I won't be surprised if it rears its ugly head, eventually.

I haven't done a set-up yet, so not sure how the intonation is, but string height seems good enough for now.

It has a Tune-o-matic type bridge. The string retainer is set up in an interesting way in that each ball end on the strings sort of pile one on top of the other, as opposed to a seperate space for each. I understand the why of it, but have never seen that before. I'm not sure if all 12-string basses are set up this way. It seems a bit "just get 'er done", willy-nilly type of engineering LOL!

The pickup selector works well, and has positive engagement. Volume and tone knobs work well (more on those later).

I like the output of the pickups. Clear, powerful, good amount of adjustability, not micorphonic.

All-in-all, I'm happy with it. I'll know more as time goes on and report on my findings, if anyone is interested.

So, regarding the binding, and knobs. In the original advertisement pics (see my first two pictures), the knobs were black, similar to J bass style knobs. I like those a LOT better than the silver knobs it arrived with.
Regarding the binding, the original ad pics show the binding as having 2 thin black lines in the design. The binding on the bass I received only has 1. I know this is a small point but, part of the reason I ordered this particular bass was that I liked the binding in the ad pics, and also the black knobs. I've written to the seller to point these things out and see if they will provide me with the black knobs and if they'll give me a discount in regards to the binding. I'm still waiting to hear back from them.

View attachment 5284753 View attachment 5284754 View attachment 5284755 View attachment 5284756 View attachment 5284757 View attachment 5284758 View attachment 5284759 View attachment 5284760 View attachment 5284761 View attachment 5284765

neat. how much can someone pick one of these up for?

 

[GKon]

what


neat. how much can someone pick one of these up for?

The listing on ebay was for $319 or best offer. I ended up getting it for $300.

Keep in mind the discussion here about the strings that are on it not being ide, and as @B-Mac pointed out, the bridge has one saddle per 3 strings which is also not ideal.

 

[Smooth_bass88]

The listing on ebay was for $319 or best offer. I ended up getting it for $300.

Keep in mind the discussion here about the strings that are on it not being ide, and as @B-Mac pointed out, the bridge has one saddle per 3 strings which is also not ideal.

that's cool.

 

[mikewalker]

I'd be looking for a new bridge, but that Headstock is awesome

 

[B-Mac]

Being that my main hobby is building, and modifying motorcycles and the like, and I've been slowly but surely migrating those skills to working on basses, I don't think swapping out a bridge is something I'm too worried about.
It was worth the money I bought it for for me to then be able to do some modifications, and not worry too much if I mess something up, or if it doesn't work out.
Honestly, I'm not, at all, worried about it.

Best way to mod. Get something that is a real mod platform and mod it to work. That's what you have. Go for it! Full speed ahead!

 

[B-Mac]

Hi folks,

Yesterday, I received a Chinese made 12-string bass that I bought off of eBay. The nice part about that is that it arrived in 5 days rather than 3 months as when you order from AliExpress.
Being a lover of Carlo Robelli basses, I did search the internet to see if there was a CR 12-string for sale, but I didn't see one. That being said, even if one was available, it's a bit out of my current price range at the moment. Hence my purchasing an inexpensive Chinese 12-string.

(As an aside, I find it interesting that many regard Carlo Robellis basses as nothing special, yet the 12-string version has had its value go way up over the years. Anyway, I digress.)

I've only had the chance to unbox it, tune it up, and play it for a few minutes. Here are my initial impressions.

I really like the body shape, color, and binding (more on the binding later). I also REALLY like the headstock shape. I find it interesting, especially with the cutouts, and the way the tuning pegs are mounted. I do hope it can take the added string tension as time goes on.

The neck is WIDE! Widest neck I've got on any bass. That makes sense, though. It doesn't feel bad, but I do notice the extra width. It's got a flat and thin profile, which makes it easy enough to move around on and to play all the strings. Playing all those strings, and playing them well is going to take some getting used to, that's for sure.

When tuning it up, I wasn't sure how 12-strings are typically tuned. I've since found out that the "normal" strings are tuned as normal to EADG, and the two thinner, accompanying strings are tuned one octave higher.
My two thinner strngs are of different gauges. When I tried to tune the thicker E string an octave higher, it seemed like it was putting way too much tension on the string and that it would snap. So I tuned it at the same octave as the normal E string. This makes it too floppy, though.
I did the same with the rest of the thicker of the two accompanying strings. Those are not too floppy.
I'll play around with it and see if I can retune them all an octave higher.

Fret work is good. No buzzing, no sharp ends. However, fret sprout tends to be the norm here in Albuquerque, so I won't be surprised if it rears its ugly head, eventually.

I haven't done a set-up yet, so not sure how the intonation is, but string height seems good enough for now.

It has a Tune-o-matic type bridge. The string retainer is set up in an interesting way in that each ball end on the strings sort of pile one on top of the other, as opposed to a seperate space for each. I understand the why of it, but have never seen that before. I'm not sure if all 12-string basses are set up this way. It seems a bit "just get 'er done", willy-nilly type of engineering LOL!

The pickup selector works well, and has positive engagement. Volume and tone knobs work well (more on those later).

I like the output of the pickups. Clear, powerful, good amount of adjustability, not micorphonic.

All-in-all, I'm happy with it. I'll know more as time goes on and report on my findings, if anyone is interested.

So, regarding the binding, and knobs. In the original advertisement pics (see my first two pictures), the knobs were black, similar to J bass style knobs. I like those a LOT better than the silver knobs it arrived with.
Regarding the binding, the original ad pics show the binding as having 2 thin black lines in the design. The binding on the bass I received only has 1. I know this is a small point but, part of the reason I ordered this particular bass was that I liked the binding in the ad pics, and also the black knobs. I've written to the seller to point these things out and see if they will provide me with the black knobs and if they'll give me a discount in regards to the binding. I'm still waiting to hear back from them.

View attachment 5284753 View attachment 5284754 View attachment 5284755 View attachment 5284756 View attachment 5284757 View attachment 5284758 View attachment 5284759 View attachment 5284760 View attachment 5284761 View attachment 5284765

Being that @bholder did mods with something like this, it may be wise to see his posts on the 8 string club link that I posted earlier. There's a lot of 8 saddle bridges posted there.

 

[bholder]

Being that @bholder did mods with something like this, it may be wise to see his posts on the 8 string club link that I posted earlier. There's a lot of 8 saddle bridges posted there.

I haven't actually done any mods on these yet, but yes, was investigating bridge alternatives. What they come with is just a 4 string tune-o-matic brutally hacked with a file to add extra slots, so yeah, no fine tuning intonation!

 

[GKon]

that's cool.

And, he's offered a $15 discount because the bass looked slightly different than the ad pics (different knobs, and slightly different binding), so it ends up to be $285.

 

[GKon]

Best way to mod. Get something that is a real mod platform and mod it to work. That's what you have. Go for it! Full speed ahead!

Yes sir! Thank you!
And thanks for all of the info! I've learned something new.

BTW, in looking at pictures of the DUG 12 string bass, it looks like the bridge on that has 1 saddle for the main string, and 1 saddle for both octave strings. It's hard to tell, as I haven't found a hi enough res photo to zoom in close enough to tell.