Neck Relief Question

[Geri O]

Okay, I'm one of those guys that can keep the necks and actions adjusted to my liking, but smart enough to take a serious issue to a real luthier or guitar tech...

Recently, I bought a Fender American Standard Precision V bass from an Ebay dealer. Long story short, the neck had a serious issue which wound up costing me $400 to have repaired. Lots of convoluted reasons why I didn't return the bass or attempt a warranty repair. And I know good and well what any sane person would do under the circumstances, so please spare the bandwidth with "You should have done X,Y, and Z!!" I know that and there's reasons I did what I did. Leave it there. If anyone just HAS to know the whole story, I'll post it later in the thread, but for now, it'll stay here.

My local luthier performed a miracle on the bass with the repairs. He has that reputation around here and he delivers every time. It's back to what it was supposed to be. However, he set the neck to what appeared to be ruler flat, which goes against what I've always heard about neck adjustments. I've heard that there is supposed to just enough upward curve (relief?) at the end of the neck to be able to see and no more. It's supposed to help the angle of the strings as they are fretted to not buzz so much (and all luthiers that participate here are encouraged to better explain or refute that statement, I'm just trying to get the point across). He explained that the neck did indeed have a few 1000s of an inch in relief, but no more, or the neck will be too stressed from the pull of the strings. Well, in my pro days, I had Fenders that I set up with a little (and I do mean, just a little) relief and never had any issues from it. And I set up my Stingray V that I bought last December the same way and that bass couldn't play any better than if it could play itself. I love that bass!

So I get the Precision home and start playing with it. I use medium strings (050, 070, 085, 105, 135) and I like a slightly high action. Right off the bat, it's too low for my liking, with a LOT of buzzing, rattling, and clanking, even for a Fender. So I raise it some, then a little more, and it's better, but still not seeming quite right, with a little bit of the aforementioned buzzing, rattling, and clanking. I mess with it some more, but then, I decide, what the heck, I'm gonna loosen the truss rod a 1/4 of turn and see what happens.

I swear, I heard Angels singing when I finished. Nearly all of the artifacts (buzzing, rattling, and clanking) were GONE. Now the action is kinda high, even for me, so I lowered it to where I like it to be. Wow, still no artifacts to speak of, other than the usual, which I actually like. Now it plays like I remember good ol' Fenders playing. I spent 3 hours afterwards just playing the bass along with my iTunes collection and enjoying it. Right after I bought the bass, I replaced the pup with a Nord NF5P (or the other way around) and a Bart TC1 preamp, and it's sounding really righteous! And I can actually enjoy hearing the bass since the other glaring issue is solved.

So, all this to ask, what about this relief question? What should it be? Is there a potential problem with the little bit of relief that I like? Am I using the term "relief" correctly, or in proper context?

I'm ecstatic that the repair guy was able to repair the neck and very happy with his work overall. but we disagree on this one point and I'm seeking other opinions on it.

Thanks for reading along at home....

 

[bassbenj]

So, all this to ask, what about this relief question? What should it be? Is there a potential problem with the little bit of relief that I like? Am I using the term "relief" correctly, or in proper context?

I'm ecstatic that the repair guy was able to repair the neck and very happy with his work overall. but we disagree on this one point and I'm seeking other opinions on it.

Thanks for reading along at home....

Well, actually what has happened is you have sort of "invented" or should we say "discovered" what relief is all about. Think of it like this: You have a fretboard and you have a bridge that are two points that support the string. When you pluck a string it vibrates. And that means moves up and down. Now it vibrates most in the middle but less and less as you go toward the ends. OK?

Now the big question is when you press the string on a fret (say the first fret) how close is the SECOND fret to the string? Well if the neck is completely straight, you can calculate that distance by trigonometry. And the answer is it is VERY close to the string. And that means the string can bump into the next fret when it vibrates. This can be bad or good depending! For example on a fretless this vibration give the tone known as Mwah. Which is why you make the neck straighter to get more mwah on a fretless.

But on a fretted neck it's called BUZZ and is usually not what you want. So to fix the problem you give the neck a bit of concave curvature. This is called relief. If you press a center string at the 1st and 12th frets and peer under the string in the middle you should see a gap. That gap is called "relief". The "standard" setting for that gap is about the thickness of a business card! And that fixes the buzz problem... sort of.

The sort of part, is that people don't all play the same way. The harder you pluck the strings the FARTHER they vibrate and the MORE likely they will hit the next fret and buzz! Hence, the "standard" setting above is for people who love super low action and "let the amp do the work". For them it makes for an easy fast-playing bass. But truly that isn't me! I like to get "into" the music and when I do I start to "dig in" and when I do the bass starts to buzz! It's obvious!

So I crank my relief up to about the thickness of a credit card (about two business cards) and I'm good to go. This is why there is no "correct" setting for relief. There is only a correct setting for YOU! And it gets still worse. The above is for a bass with a perfectly shaped neck. Most basses aren't perfect. So if the neck is bit wavey or you have a high fret or two you haven't fixed, you'll likely have to increase the relief still more plus raise the bridge so the strings won't buzz on the high areas in question.

So really all you've done is discovered that you need to set the setup on your bass to match how YOU play it!

My final comment is that there is a tendency to set the relief higher than it should be. So always bring the relief down until the strings start to buzz (the way YOU play the bass) and then back off just a tad you'll be correct without over-doing it.

So the bottom line is that you've discovered why everybody needs to learn to do their own setup if they want their bass perfect for how THEY play it!

 

[Turnaround]

What's right for you is probably not right for the next player. And that is a problem for anyone who does setups. A good tech will set up your instrument at his best guess as to how it will work for you. At the same time he/she should be fully prepared to make further adjustments. The first trial is going to be a "best guess". If he didn't guess right, give him the opportunity to take a better-educated guess. It shouldn't be too long before he gets it optimally dialled in. From that point on he won't have to guess any more.

 

[Geri O]

I appreciate the time you guys took to respond and you make great points. I've been doing my own basic set-ups for most of the time I've been playing.

Perhaps I put too much time into the set-up part of the story. And let me reiterate, the repair guy performed miracles on this bass. Even with the repair charges, I couldn't be happier with the work he did. And I knew full well that I'd have to make some adjustments once I got it back in my hands. EVERYONE sets up bass actions too low for my tastes.

The gist of the question was about the point he made to me concerning the amount of relief that's okay to have in the neck. To repeat, he says that only a few 1000s of an inch of relief is needed and any more is bad on the neck That flies in the face how I set up my Fenders, my Music Man, and even my Alembic a long time ago, where I set them up with only enough relief in the neck to be obvious to the eye when sighting down the neck.

I spent most of the evening on that bass tonight and I love it. Played soooo much better than before.

 

[elBandito]

.001" is negligible, the neck might as well be straight. .001" is like thickness of cigarette paper .01" seems to be the standard, and it works well for me. Any straighter, I start to get buzzing on first few frets. Too much relief messes with intonation, s
I noticed, using the string for measuring relief gives you incorrect measurement. The string bends over fret wire, and doesn't form a reliable straight edge. Use a 24" straight edge ruler with .01" shim, and the results are noticeably different compared to setting my relief by fretting first and last fret.

 

[Turnaround]

To repeat, he says that only a few 1000s of an inch of relief is needed and any more is bad on the neck

Those who measure relief (myself included) usually do it thousandths of an inch, with around 10 thou being a typical relief setting. But then, it depends on how you are measuring - first to last fret, or first fret to body joint, and at what fret you are taking the measurement. All this to say that "a few thousandths" is a reasonable amount depending on how you measure and your definition of "few". A few more thousandths isn't going to hurt anything - again depending on what you mean by "few".

 

[iiipopes]

Everyone is different. Fender has their specs, Rickenbacker specs are for no relief, and everybody has a different take depending on playing style. I prefer, if the neck will do it, to have very little, if any relief on the G string, and a few thou or so on the E or B string, to make the G string play easier and to give the lower strings more room for excursion.

It boils down to what you like. If you like a little more, then your tech will be more than happy to help you get it to where it needs to be.

 

[RustyAxe]

A dead flat neck is a recipe for buzzing ... there NEEDS to be some relief to let the strings move! I adjust mine to be the least possible. I start from dead flat and add relief until it buzzes, then back off ... perfect. It sometimes takes a day or two for things to settle in. Once adjusted I rarely have to touch it again. Too much relief creates its own problems ... intonation mostly as the strings are stretched when fretted and are pulled sharp. I'm amazed at how many players naively think that all action issues can be remedied by tweaking the truss rod ... instead of addressing nut slots, saddle height, fret leveling.

 

[Hopkins]

I set relieve by eyeball, but I have been working on guitars and basses for pretty long time. A good starting point is .010" relief between the string and the 7th fret, when capoed at the first fret and fretted at the 20th fret.

 

[JTE]

S
A dead flat, no relief setup CAN work, but it's certainly not for everyone. It requires a very precise touch and technique with noth hands, careful set up, and frequent tweaking to maintain it. While Anthony Jackson is a proponent of no relief, most players find some to be helpful.

I don't pay attention to factory specs because they don't work for me, especially Fender's. I know what feels right for me, and put mine there.

John

 

[Ric5]

So I get the Precision home and start playing with it. I use medium strings (050, 070, 085, 105, 135) and I like a slightly high action. Right off the bat, it's too low for my liking, with a LOT of buzzing, rattling, and clanking, even for a Fender. So I raise it some, then a little more, and it's better, but still not seeming quite right, with a little bit of the aforementioned buzzing, rattling, and clanking. I mess with it some more, but then, I decide, what the heck, I'm gonna loosen the truss rod a 1/4 of turn and see what happens.

I swear, I heard Angels singing when I finished. Nearly all of the artifacts (buzzing, rattling, and clanking) were GONE. Now the action is kinda high, even for me, so I lowered it to where I like it to be. Wow, still no artifacts to speak of, other than the usual, which I actually like. Now it plays like I remember good ol' Fenders playing. I spent 3 hours afterwards just playing the bass along with my iTunes collection and enjoying it. Right after I bought the bass, I replaced the pup with a Nord NF5P (or the other way around) and a Bart TC1 preamp, and it's sounding really righteous! And I can actually enjoy hearing the bass since the other glaring issue is solved.

I prefer a flat neck and low action. Not all basses work with that setup. So I tweak it until it plays good.

 

[walterw]

i think of relief as being like the bidding on "the price is right"; you're trying for as close as you can get "without going over". the better the fretwork the closer you can get to that ideal, but there should always be just a little space.

no way you're going to hurt the neck if we're still talking about business card-sized gaps. it's when you get big "cheeseburger" gaps (where a cheeseburger will fit under the strings) that you risk the neck settling on its curved state and not wanting to straighten out anymore.

to me, anything less than .010" of gap is really goddamn straight for a bass neck.

 

[R&B]

I spent all of $5 at Pep Boys to get an old-fashioned set of feeler gauges--the kind we used back in the day to set spark plug gaps and ignition points. That simple tool plus a capo, set of hex keys, screwdriver and string height gauge (StewMac) is all you need to set up your basses consistently to your own specs. You may find that your preferences evolve. Having exact measurements lets you tweak your setups in a reproducible way.

John Carruthers (helpful series of 4 videos online) recommends 0.012" relief on the E string at the 7th fret, with capo on the first fret and finger down on the 17th fret. I found I like less relief, around 0.010" as stated above. Flat necks buzz, while curvy necks don't intonate or play well IMHO.

 

[Solarmist]

I set relieve by eyeball, but I have been working on guitars and basses for pretty long time. A good starting point is .010" relief between the string and the 7th fret, when capoed at the first fret and fretted at the 20th fret.

I never measure either, but after actually checking - I found mine are just a tad more than the thickness of a business card so that's right around .012 - .016. I like a bit more than most people I guess.