Necks Shimmed by the Factory? WTH?

[Jarneskeg]

I just read that Ibanez uses neck join shims in the manufacturing of some basses. Is this really a thing?
When I buy a new bass, certainly anything approaching or exceeding a thousand USD, I expect it to be designed and built well enough to not need a shim from the factory! Trust me, I am not expecting Lakland USA quality at that price range, but they should be able design and work the wood well enough to avoid needing shims from the word go.
Does anyone know what manufacturers are using this @#&%<$ production process so I can avoid them?

 

[mcnach]

Well, avoid MusicMan too then, oh and Fender. And many others.

In fact, just don't buy any bolt-on instruments, to be 'safe'.

(shims are fine , but hey we are all entitled to our phobias)

 

[tindrum]

Shims are PERFECTLY normal on a new bass and absolutely nothing to worry about. Mass produced basses are not lovingly hand crafted to within micrometers. After all we are talking about wood here and all its variables and a very busy production line. A shim is a sign that in QC someone found it needed a slight tweak to obtain optimal playability. That’s a good thing.

 

[Killing Floor]

As above, Fender, G&L, Ibanez, you could pretty much make a list of bolt neck basses and guitars and that’s who will sometimes use a shim.

Shim isn’t bad, shim is the factory finishing the instrument.

Even set neck big brands use shims but you can’t tell because they’re sealed in the adhesive.

 

[Gervais Cote]

I prefer by far to have a shim than fret buzz !

 

[Jarneskeg]

Thanks for the response.

I get that it's perfectly fine, and common to use them during set up. Phobia? Not quite, but it does make me doubt the quality of instruments coming out of a factory if they have to use shims to compensate for design or workmanship flaws on a regular basis.

Sometimes the shim is part of the design, and luthiers use them as well. Those don't worry me. I am referring, for example, to a standard J-bass copy, designed to have the neck bolt directly into the pocket in a perfect fit, and the assemblers are having to add shims on the regular. That speaks to a process flaw.

I have owned Kawai, Fender, FGN, Michael Kelly, Ibanez, Squier, and Offbeat bolt-on basses. I prefer bolt-on necks specifically because they can be replaced, shimmed, modified, and removed during refrets and more serious work. I have removed the necks on all of those, except the Offbeat, and never once did I find a shim. I have had a shim added (the Kawai) but none of them were shimmed by the manufacturer.

So, like I said, not anti-shim, but assemblers having to use shims to compensate for design or workmanship flaws - that makes me wonder what else they couldn't get quite right.

 

[Jarneskeg]

I prefer by far to have a shim than fret buzz !

I would definitely agree with that.

 

[Jeff Scott]

Thanks for the response.

I get that it's perfectly fine, and common to use them during set up. Phobia? Not quite, but it does make me doubt the quality of instruments coming out of a factory if they have to use shims to compensate for design or workmanship flaws on a regular basis.

Easy, just build your own and show them how it should be done.

 

[Whale]

Back when I was first starting to play bass I bought a brand spanking new Precision. This was in 1976. I took it home and showed it to my neighbor, who owned Moze Guitars (luthier) in San Diego. He said he’d show me how to do a full set up. When he removed the neck we found half of a random matchbook cover being used as a shim! It had been put there by the Fender factory workers.

I remember feeling more than a little peeved off because I’d worked my butt off to save up for that bass only to find it was put together so poorly. My neighbor, however, told me that shims are common and are not a big deal at all. We left the matchbook cover in place because the neck angle was just right.

I played that bass for 25+ years and never once had a problem with it. Nor did I ever worry about the neck being shimmed. Fast forward to today and my friend who now owns the bass is still playing it with that crazy matchbook installed.

To be fair, that bass had other issues (the bridge was misaligned slightly, there was a big gap in the neck pocket, and the finish eventually wore thin to reveal that the factory had reapplied a black finish over the tri-burst), but the sustain, tone, and the action on that instrument is absolutely outstanding. The goofy matchbook cover doesn’t seem to have caused any negative effects at all.

 

[smogg]

Shims are PERFECTLY normal on a new bass and absolutely nothing to worry about. Mass produced basses are not lovingly hand crafted to within micrometers. After all we are talking about wood here and all its variables and a very busy production line. A shim is a sign that in QC someone found it needed a slight tweak to obtain optimal playability. That’s a good thing.

^^^^^ this ^^^^^

 

[gln1955]

So, like I said, not anti-shim, but assemblers having to use shims to compensate for design or workmanship flaws - that makes me wonder what else they couldn't get quite right.

It's not a design or workmanship flaw. It's wood. You can cry about it all you want, but wood is not a perfectly stable material.

 

[Geri O]

I just read that Ibanez uses neck join shims in the manufacturing of some basses. Is this really a thing?
When I buy a new bass, certainly anything approaching or exceeding a thousand USD, I expect it to be designed and built well enough to not need a shim from the factory! Trust me, I am not expecting Lakland USA quality at that price range, but they should be able design and work the wood well enough to avoid needing shims from the word go.
Does anyone know what manufacturers are using this @#&%<$ production process so I can avoid them?

Hopefully, you’ve figured that this topic is a starter, along with your arguments against a very common practice.

So it’s neck-through basses for you, then…..

(And nothing wrong with that at all….)

 

[Jarneskeg]

Back when I was first starting to play bass I bought a brand spanking new Precision. This was in 1976. I took it home and showed it to my neighbor, who owned Moze Guitars (luthier) in San Diego. He said he’d show me how to do a full set up. When he removed the neck we found half of a random matchbook cover being used as a shim! It had been put there by the Fender factory workers.

I remember feeling more than a little peeved off because I’d worked my butt off to save up for that bass only to find it was put together so poorly. My neighbor, however, told me that shims are common and are not a big deal at all. We left the matchbook cover in place because the neck angle was just right.

I played that bass for 25+ years and never once had a problem with it. Nor did I ever worry about the neck being shimmed. Fast forward to today and my friend who now owns the bass is still playing it with that crazy matchbook installed.

To be fair, that bass had other issues (the bridge was misaligned slightly, there was a big gap in the neck pocket, and the finish eventually wore thin to reveal that the factory had reapplied a black finish over the tri-burst), but the sustain, tone, and the action on that instrument is absolutely outstanding. The goofy matchbook cover doesn’t seem to have caused any negative effects at all.

Thanks for this story. I needed to hear it.

 

[KellyC]

Thanks for the response.

I get that it's perfectly fine, and common to use them during set up. Phobia? Not quite, but it does make me doubt the quality of instruments coming out of a factory if they have to use shims to compensate for design or workmanship flaws on a regular basis.

Sometimes the shim is part of the design, and luthiers use them as well. Those don't worry me. I am referring, for example, to a standard J-bass copy, designed to have the neck bolt directly into the pocket in a perfect fit, and the assemblers are having to add shims on the regular. That speaks to a process flaw.

I have owned Kawai, Fender, FGN, Michael Kelly, Ibanez, Squier, and Offbeat bolt-on basses. I prefer bolt-on necks specifically because they can be replaced, shimmed, modified, and removed during refrets and more serious work. I have removed the necks on all of those, except the Offbeat, and never once did I find a shim. I have had a shim added (the Kawai) but none of them were shimmed by the manufacturer.

So, like I said, not anti-shim, but assemblers having to use shims to compensate for design or workmanship flaws - that makes me wonder what else they couldn't get quite right.

How narrow can a manufacturer's tolerances be to make money on a bass that ships 10,000 miles to sell for $500 wholesale?

 

[Jarneskeg]

Easy, just build your own and show them how it should be done.

I would definitely learn a lot and might even come to better appreciate shim use.

 

[Freekmagnet]

Shims have nothing to do with “quality”, but has everything to do with manufacturing tolerances and expansion/contraction/variations of the wood material itself. One could ineffectively argue that manufacturing tolerances should be smaller in theory, but it just doesn’t work that way in practice. Any bolt-on guitar design is likely to use shims at some point. On my own guitars, I usually cut my wood within .003”-.006” of spec, which is barely perceptible. I have actually used shims once or twice.

 

[Dominic D]

I’m sorry, but this is like complaining that they use adjustable saddles instead of fixed height saddles.

 

[tpaul]

I have no problems with neck shims and have used them many times if the setup required it.

What I never liked were those micro-tilt neck adjuster thingies Fender was using at one point. Seemed like a poor solution. I'd be interested to hear the experiences of anyone who used those things.

 

[KenD]

I just read that Ibanez uses neck join shims in the manufacturing of some basses. Is this really a thing?
When I buy a new bass, certainly anything approaching or exceeding a thousand USD, I expect it to be designed and built well enough to not need a shim from the factory! Trust me, I am not expecting Lakland USA quality at that price range, but they should be able design and work the wood well enough to avoid needing shims from the word go.
Does anyone know what manufacturers are using this @#&%<$ production process so I can avoid them?

Apparently a lot of them do. Stewmac has quite a range of shims available on their site.

Of course you could buy a bass with set in or thru body neck and then cross your fingers and hope that the bridge had enough height adjustment range to deal with any variance.

 

[Jarneskeg]

How narrow can a manufacturer's tolerances be to make money on a bass that ships 10,000 miles to sell for $500 wholesale?

That is a very good question. I was thinking of basses $750 to $1,500, but your point is still taken.
On the other hand, their tolerances generally are fairly tight when it comes to frets, scale, fretboard alignment, placing the bridge, routing the body for pups and pups, etc.
But yeah, there has to be a margin of error, and when out of spec, the person doing set up has to do what they can to compensate. At least they are on the ball enough to do what it takes to make the instrument play well.