Need help setting someone straight - your POV please

[swink]

What do you understand by for free?
- To me it is when all expenses made are covered and no profit is made. (This is ok for me.)
- If you see it in the sense that it costs the organizer nothing and you have to put in money yourself, then I speak of exploitation. (Whether I want this I do not leave to others to decide on this.)

Rhetorical: How much did you invest in your equipment, and how many gigs do you need to do to break even?

1. It remains a hobby, and hobbies cost money.
2. Money and Friends/Family need to be kept separate as much as possible....

 

[Polfuste]

One thing here: Is it really a friend ? Real friendship is base on mutual respect, even (and especially) when different POV shows up. In this case, his vision is his vision and he doesn't have to judge you about the difference of yours. I would politely say to him to find another bassplayer for these free gigs, and that i would always happy to play with him in other contexts.

 

[Chuck King]

Lots of good points in this thread, interspersed with a lot of posturing. Whenever the topic of playing for free comes up it seems to bring out a whole bunch of comments along the lines of "Never! No sir! Not me!" and I always hear behind those declarations and unspoken "I'm not a chump!" "Nobody's going to take advantage of me!" "What I do is worth getting paid for!" Still,

I'm telling you they are people out there who think that playing is for fun. They have no problem appearing in public for no compensation.

If everybody who loudly proclaims that they would never play for free or cheap really means it, I pity those guys the small black lump inside them where their hearts used to be, because economics aside, there are damn few things you can do which are, IMO, more straight-up fun than playing songs you like for a crowd of people who are having a good time dancing and singing along with you. It's unjust and a mistake to let other people make a bunch of money off of your talents without getting a cut of it, but not every performance opportunity falls into that category. Anybody who hasn't had their love of music and performing burned out of them by treating it as solely a job for too long will remain open to grabbing opportunities to have fun performing opportunities when they can, some of which may not pay well or at all. (Note: opinions can differ on what constitutes "fun" vs. "work".)

If you enjoy playing with this band as well as using the gear you have bought, then do it. * * * Sometimes a non-paying gig can be fun especially since there is no pressure to play a certain amount of time, certain music, etc. You just do you. They got what they paid for.

I can understand the point of view that hauling out, setting up and tearing down a PA is a pain in the ass and would push a given performance opportunity from the "fun" to the "work" category. If you put it to your friend that way he ought to understand it, but reading between the lines here I think there's something else at work:

Sounds like the drummer committed to the free gig because he's mister "Yeah! My band will do it! For free! Why? Because I'm a great guy and my band will do what I ask!" before he ran it by they band and now he has to go back and ask for money....

Your friend is now stuck being embarrassed and forced to go back on his offer of the band. If he's unusually heated I suspect it's because he's faced with potentially damaging his relationship with his other friends. If you guys are really close, he probably figures he's better off antagonizing you than them because your relationship will weather it. So also, think of it this way: it's one thing to do a free gig or not because your friend wants to but you think it's too much trouble, but it may be a different analysis if what you're doing is a favor to save your friend from embarrassment---as long as it can be a teaching moment for him about committing other people to gigs without asking.

Finally, a couple other points, quoted for truth:

End of the day, this venture is a hobby for 95% of the people out there. The real pros are doing fine doing pro stuff. The amateurs that are calling themselves pros and telling stories of how they used to play seven nights a week for $300 a man at the local pizza joint are just telling stories.

If musicians refused to play [dive bars and backyard parties] at less than union, they wouldn't be generating more work for union musicians. Those gigs just wouldn't happen.

I think the whole "devalue" argument is a fallacy because, as a rule, venues that engage in a race to the bottom to get the cheapest band they can are not going to pay more if bands refuse to play for chicken feed anymore. They are just not going to have bands. No good band that can draw a crowd is going to regularly lose good-paying gigs to dad bands playing for beer. If you are actively competing with those bands for gigs you've got bigger problems.

 

[gln1955]

I think the whole "devalue" argument is a fallacy because, as a rule, venues that engage in a race to the bottom to get the cheapest band they can are not going to pay more if bands refuse to play for chicken feed anymore. They are just not going to have bands. No good band that can draw a crowd is going to regularly lose good-paying gigs to dad bands playing for beer. If you are actively competing with those bands for gigs you've got bigger problems.

This. The conflict presented by some on here between musicians who want to make a good part of their income from music and the weekend warriors playing for free or a few bucks is largely contrived and a more than a bit silly.

 

[ricibanez]

The whole thing is this, if you want to play for free or(cheap) that is up to that person. If you don't then that is your right. no one on here should be calling people names or trying to put them down for their opinion on a subject. we can all say what we have to say and agree or disagree without the other name calling nonsense. We are players of music and should stay as such. leave the personal comments about people you don't know at all out. you can get mad for what I wrote I don't care this is a Forum.

 

[pepj]

The upshot is the friend can commit his time the way he wants...he is out of order doing the same for you without your agreement.
And if he is guilty of doing this often, its about time it backfired on him whereby he has to undo the mess he created.
I dont quite understand why we'd still be talking about it. No means no is enough, imv.

 

[LBS-bass]

OK trying for brevity here but I will probably fail. I'm writing because I'm super frustrated with a friend who on one topic has always been clueless and I thought maybe some of you could assist.

I'm an amateur player in a couple of bands. Many years ago I was taking lessons while I was in a jazz standards band that played small events from time to time. I asked my teacher what we should be charging and he was adamant that we accept no less than union scale. The idea was that giving it away or playing for cheap is terrible for working musicians. I have since heard the same thing from many people who make some or all of their living as musicians. And I've quit bands after playing free gigs (for charity, for example) where everyone else gets paid - the florists, the caterers, the bartenders, the venue, etc. I don't mind playing a charity gig for free as long as everyone else is giving it away too. Otherwise, music ain't free.

My BEST friend, oldest friend, plays drums and we have been playing together for many years, and he loves playing as I do, but he's always willing to play for free and grudgingly will get us gigs that pay $100 a guy, whatever. (The last bar gig I played, with a different band, we all agreed to donate the proceeds to charity... none of us needs $100.)

OK so my drummer pal just told me he wants to play Saturday night at the end of the month at a private party for people who want to have a blow out party before they do a "massive reno" (his words) on their house. And he's going to play for free but will "try" to get us $100. For my $100 I will have to haul, set up, and tear down not only my bass rig but a PA and mics on Saturday night. I'll have help at the venue but ultimately will be loading and unloading. Let's not get into how bad the traffic in Toronto is... especially on Saturday night.

I'm only going to quote one of his texts (and this is a guy I have known for 49 years:

"Watch how quickly I jump at any chance to play live and I'm lugging a poopieload more gear than u...If I get some $ out of it great but I'm not a jobber and I'm not a pro by a long shot so I don't have the same attitude about playing music as u...it's kinda sad"
(he does go on to insult me multiple times, which IS what's sad to me because we are such good friends and it's not like I haven't told him what I think many times).

Anyway, what do you fellow low-enders think?

You're not going to change him. It sounds like you might need to find new people to play with who share your considerations.

The world is changing and "union scale" hasn't really been a thing for musicians for ages, but I agree with the principal that if you believe what you offer has value you should be demonstrating that by charging a competitive fee for it.

At this point in my life, I turn down gigs that are more trouble than they're worth, unless there's some other compelling reason to do them. Your friend thinks jumping at any gig makes him look good, but in some eyes it makes him foolish. You two can't work together reasonably if you don't agree on what this looks like.

I've played in bands with bandleaders that wanted to drive to any corner of the universe, no matter how long it took, to set up on grass and pay in 100* heat in the middle of the day, and I've said no to a lot of those gigs. In the end it just generates ill will because I'm the one always saying no. The solution is to find people who share your values. That guy will burn out on crappy gigs and resent you for having common sense, but you don't have to go there with him.

 

[LBS-bass]

If everybody who loudly proclaims that they would never play for free or cheap really means it, I pity those guys the small black lump inside them where their hearts used to be, because economics aside, there are damn few things you can do which are, IMO, more straight-up fun than playing songs you like for a crowd of people who are having a good time dancing and singing along with you.

This is the false dichotomy that gets us stuck.

Playing music is fun. That's part of why some people choose it as a career. There is absolutely no law on the books that says your work has to suck and that if you have too much fun at your work you're not entitled to be compensated for it. This is an idea that's probably responsible for a lot of needless misery, because work does not have to be painful.

Take any other job (like, say, your job) and bring in a crew that sends you home and works for free. What does that look like to you? Is that a situation that makes you happy because now someone else who's been longing to do your work gets to do it, too?

I'm not a "no, never!" type but the reasons for doing this have to be sound and solid and whoever is doing the ask should be making it as easy as they can. A fundraiser or benefit for a worthy cause? Sure, I'll do that if the cause is important and I believe in the people who are asking. But I'm not playing someone's private party or dive bar for free.

 

[pepj]

Being dragged onto gigs whereby you start to resent certains things about them can also destroy your desire to do gigs full stop.
This is a route to burn out.
I'm pretty careful on the gigs I now take but that still doesn't totally prevent me getting stitched up from time to time.

 

[SLO Surfer]

OK trying for brevity here but I will probably fail. I'm writing because I'm super frustrated with a friend who on one topic has always been clueless and I thought maybe some of you could assist.

I'm an amateur player in a couple of bands. Many years ago I was taking lessons while I was in a jazz standards band that played small events from time to time. I asked my teacher what we should be charging and he was adamant that we accept no less than union scale. The idea was that giving it away or playing for cheap is terrible for working musicians. I have since heard the same thing from many people who make some or all of their living as musicians. And I've quit bands after playing free gigs (for charity, for example) where everyone else gets paid - the florists, the caterers, the bartenders, the venue, etc. I don't mind playing a charity gig for free as long as everyone else is giving it away too. Otherwise, music ain't free.

My BEST friend, oldest friend, plays drums and we have been playing together for many years, and he loves playing as I do, but he's always willing to play for free and grudgingly will get us gigs that pay $100 a guy, whatever. (The last bar gig I played, with a different band, we all agreed to donate the proceeds to charity... none of us needs $100.)

OK so my drummer pal just told me he wants to play Saturday night at the end of the month at a private party for people who want to have a blow out party before they do a "massive reno" (his words) on their house. And he's going to play for free but will "try" to get us $100. For my $100 I will have to haul, set up, and tear down not only my bass rig but a PA and mics on Saturday night. I'll have help at the venue but ultimately will be loading and unloading. Let's not get into how bad the traffic in Toronto is... especially on Saturday night.

I'm only going to quote one of his texts (and this is a guy I have known for 49 years:

"Watch how quickly I jump at any chance to play live and I'm lugging a poopieload more gear than u...If I get some $ out of it great but I'm not a jobber and I'm not a pro by a long shot so I don't have the same attitude about playing music as u...it's kinda sad"
(he does go on to insult me multiple times, which IS what's sad to me because we are such good friends and it's not like I haven't told him what I think many times).

Anyway, what do you fellow low-enders think?

Wow, you leave enough context/info out for some of us to give a good opinion/advice. Care to share what you texted him before he sent that text you shared here? Sorry if you already shared that and I didn’t catch it.

 

[LBS-bass]

Take any other job (like, say, your job) and bring in a crew that sends you home and works for free. What does that look like to you? Is that a situation that makes you happy because now someone else who's been longing to do your work gets to do it, too?

Someone's going to say this doesn't hold water because it doesn't happen in the real world with regular jobs, but I would beg to differ. There are jobs being co-opted by internship programs. Jobs are being outsourced to other countries where people are willing to work for less. Jobs are being done by migrant laborers who are willing to do work that others might not find appealing. And last, but not least, jobs are being eliminated by machines and self-serve checkouts. Nobody's willing to go on record to say that any of this is OK.

I find it funny that there are people who will justify working for free (or very cheap) as musicians but will also brag about not being willing to use a self-checkout station. It's the same thing. It's just that one thing has an entertainment value for the person doing it that makes doing it seem more desirable, and you can apparently fool a lot of people with the excuse that it's fun, so it's not really work. But that's just not good enough for those people whose livelihoods were co-opted.

I mean, this is how the world is for musicians and it's been this way for a while. I don't think it's going to be something that gets fixed but I would like for people to at least own it for what it is, rather than trying to make everyone else feel bad about wanting to be compensated for the work they do and the value they bring to the venues where they work.

 

[Pocket Dave]

I find it funny that there are people who will justify working for free (or very cheap) as musicians but will also brag about not being willing to use a self-checkout station. It's the same thing. It's just that one thing has an entertainment value for the person doing it that makes doing it seem more desirable, and you can apparently fool a lot of people with the excuse that it's fun, so it's not really work. But that's just not good enough for those people whose livelihoods were co-opted.

Good point. I've been doing this over 45 years and it IS fun.

Though because it's also incredibly hard physical work with crappy hours and often long miles, the vast majority of the times I've seen the free thing rear its goofy head, it's been a self-righting-ship. These bands generally lack the experience and commitment to even register as a minor annoyance; They're not even a fly in the ointment; More like a gnat.

And that doesn't even take into account the often complete lack of entertainment value, skill and even a hint of respectful, business-like professional behavior that characterizes a lot of free bands. You get what you pay for.

By offering their services for free, these bands are giving themselves a vote of no-confidence. Why give them any consideration if they're already rating their value as not worth considering?

 

[pepj]

I think venues regard a free night as a bonus here.
They might push the idea but basically this only appeals to starters; both band and venue.

However, open mics and jams are popular but only supported by regular players sparingly to network or have the venue build a following. The house band gets paid anyway on an off night. That is like putting something back into a new venue.

But the free bands are not really a factor because there are too many gigs that pay that no one takes that bait.

Lowballers get a reputation and are avoided too.

 

[LBS-bass]

Good point. I've been doing this over 45 years and it IS fun.

Though because it's also incredibly hard physical work with crappy hours and often long miles, the vast majority of the times I've seen the free thing rear its goofy head, it's been a self-righting-ship. These bands generally lack the experience and commitment to even register as a minor annoyance; They're not even a fly in the ointment; More like a gnat.

And that doesn't even take into account the often complete lack of entertainment value, skill and even a hint of respectful, business-like professional behavior that characterizes a lot of free bands. You get what you pay for.

By offering their services for free, these bands have already given themselves a vote of no confidence. Why give them any consideration if they're already rating their own value as below worth considering?

I have to admit that about 85 to 90 percent of my opinion about this does not concern myself, but rather other people who I watched fall from working five nights a week, full time, to working three nights a week while driving delivery trucks part-time to finally driving delivery trucks full-time and playing the local American Legion Hall with the house open mic band one night a week.

I watched this happen to one of the most talented musicians I knew, until he finally succumbed to liver cancer at the age of 69. It was a sad end for someone who, when I knew him and worked with him, held an enormous amount of talent and promise but who remained tied to his local circuit, due mainly to financial and family constraints.

It would have been nice if he could have made a consistent living doing what he was born to do, and what he loved. But he couldn't, because the opportunities we had to do this disappeared.

Looking at how it is now, yes, there is a big divide between those who are consistently earning something versus those who are earning nothing. But who today is paying off a mortgage on their performance earnings? Those opportunities are gone and there are a number of reasons for it - you can't point your finger at one single thing, but the inability and reluctance of musicians to fairly value what they do surely plays a part.

 

[pepj]

A venue needs to be far more than a place to play, imv.
Does it have enough space, is the loadin not a total pita. Is there parking. Does it have a nice condusive vibe as in will groups of women go there and enjoy themselves (this rules out dives on its own)
Then the venue needs to be keen to promote music..as opposed to it being just a money thing.
Those are the better places, get a good rep and also get the better bands on the rosta. After all that, you are on your way to a successful business model for the season/year.

 

[pepj]

As for being a full time musician...which basically only points that being all they do..and doesn't really account for them being especially talented, but thats another story. There are plenty of people here doing that. They may have high earning partners which kind of masks their success and efforts, or they live off a very low income.
They may have supplementary means like a military or govt pension which allowed early retirement.
But I know more full time musicians now than I ever did. They likey teach privately or are in schools doing an advance instrument teaching program. The chancers are the ones who tend to struggle and work 3 pieces for maximising their earnings.
Its true that the mid week gig is tough to get and bare in mind you need one every week.
This is why they host/run open mics or jams because that is $100 per night 2 or 3 times a week and they might have 5 or six of these, once or twice monthly.

One of my band friends does this and he is out a min of 5 times a week.
Assume thats $500 a week mimimum on top of a pension.
Thats ok with the house paid off..

I know I can hit him with loads of dates and he is already booked up.
No chance getting him on a Sat..and little chance on fri or sunday. He is booking into next year now.

So, some make it work if they want to do it.

 

[Pocket Dave]

I have to admit that about 85 to 90 percent of my opinion about this does not concern myself, but rather other people who I watched fall from working five nights a week, full time, to working three nights a week while driving delivery trucks part-time to finally driving delivery trucks full-time and playing the local American Legion Hall with the house open mic band one night a week.

I watched this happen to one of the most talented musicians I knew, until he finally succumbed to liver cancer at the age of 69. It was a sad end for someone who, when I knew him and worked with him, held an enormous amount of talent and promise but who remained tied to his local circuit, due mainly to financial and family constraints.

It would have been nice if he could have made a consistent living doing what he was born to do, and what he loved. But he couldn't, because the opportunities we had to do this disappeared.

Looking at how it is now, yes, there is a big divide between those who are consistently earning something versus those who are earning nothing. But who today is paying off a mortgage on their performance earnings? Those opportunities are gone and there are a number of reasons for it - you can't point your finger at one single thing, but the inability and reluctance of musicians to fairly value what they do surely plays a part.

Most players who once made a passable living playing music have seen live performance work fall off, true. Though TBH, there've been freebie-offering bottom-feeders since I started playing out in the '70s.

As far as local gigs go in my area, the issue isn't limited places to play - we just can't play as many venues as there are; We manage to stay busy Thurs-Sat.

The problem with making a passable income is more about pay scale around here. While I'd love to have someone to blame that on, bands offering services free don't even factor in. The places we play don't even consider them because it's not worth the risk of them driving away paying customers.

The pay-scale problem comes down to inflation and stagnate wages: The $400 each local player might pick up with tips over a good Fri-Sat is only marginally sustainable as a full-time job when Wed-Thurs rarely net over $100/night. Add another couple bills if you pickup a Sunday morning church service and you might qualify as "working poor" if you're lucky.

If you're van-touring, your margin narrows significantly with expenses, while the pay remains the same. If you're touring the bigger stages, higher pay gets eaten by higher expenses where you only break through the-decent-profit ceiling if you're with a legacy of mega-act.

The local and regional pay scale problem from where I sit is caused by three factors, none of which have to do with ankle-biters offering to play for free.

• Live music isn't the monocultural thing it once was. When I started playing, every live music bar in town was packed on weekends - Going out to see bands was what suburban raised kids did once they hit legal age to get into clubs. Not so much now with competing technology and interests.
• The expense of having live music translates to a dwindling value proposition for some venues. For a bar to break even from live entertainment on even a $400 band, they have to show gross sales of at least $1,200 due to band pay & music publishing/licensing fees. That's hard to do on a slow to medium night for some bars.
• Lack of commitment on the part of venues. Bars whose lack of full commitment to being a live music venue hurts their ability to be taken seriously by actual live music fans, who tend to support venues where they feel welcome.

 

[pepj]

Agree that the $400 band translates to $1200 takings approx.
Most places work on a yearly model so they can take a few hits but they need to keep those down.

A vibrant bar will do well and needs supporting..and its almost self circulating; very good band equals good turn out which attracts more good bands and audience.
But there will be casualties and in the long run, its probably better (for bands) if the venues that don't work fail and startup again. Imv.

 

[51PRI]

...Live music isn't the monocultural thing it once was. When I started playing, every live music bar in town was packed on weekends...

When I first started playing bars bands played 6 nights a week, at first from 8-12 then later from 9-2, and every night was packed. People drank, smoked and danced. Now they can't smoke and they don't dance and the bands play either Friday OR Saturday, never both, and usually from 6-10 or 7-11. I know of two venues who are dropping bands on Friday night here.

 

[Treblefree]

7 pages in and nobody has stated the obvious - Fire The Drummer!

When I was young and enthusiastic, I would play for free (which is really playing at a loss as others have stated). Now I only play for free in church. If I played out somewhere I'd expect to be paid. I wouldn't ask a local painter to come paint my house for free. I don't think musician's should be asked to play for free unless it's your nieces wedding or something family related.