Need help setting someone straight - your POV please

[Jeff Hughes]

If you enjoy playing with this band as well as using the gear you have bought, then do it. If playing this party means you will be turning down a paying gig, then maybe take the paying gig. That is how I view it.

Sometimes a non-paying gig can be fun especially since there is no pressure to play a certain amount of time, certain music, etc. You just do you. They got what they paid for. But if your band is good, there is a chance you may get hired for paying gigs.

Most of the low pay gigs I have taken like this result in the person paying us more anyways.

 

[Bass Viking]

If they can afford to renovate their house they can afford to pay decently for a blowout band.

But that new gourmet kitchen is 75 grand! They can’t afford to pay musicians!

 

[mrjim123]

Don't play the gig, and definitely don't let him shame you with his BS. Keep this person at a distance for a while.

 

[Spidey2112]

The conversation went from 'try' to... Jobber, the Hutt.

 

[Rabidhamster]

OK trying for brevity here but I will probably fail. I'm writing because I'm super frustrated with a friend who on one topic has always been clueless and I thought maybe some of you could assist.

I'm an amateur player in a couple of bands. Many years ago I was taking lessons while I was in a jazz standards band that played small events from time to time. I asked my teacher what we should be charging and he was adamant that we accept no less than union scale. The idea was that giving it away or playing for cheap is terrible for working musicians. I have since heard the same thing from many people who make some or all of their living as musicians. And I've quit bands after playing free gigs (for charity, for example) where everyone else gets paid - the florists, the caterers, the bartenders, the venue, etc. I don't mind playing a charity gig for free as long as everyone else is giving it away too. Otherwise, music ain't free.

My BEST friend, oldest friend, plays drums and we have been playing together for many years, and he loves playing as I do, but he's always willing to play for free and grudgingly will get us gigs that pay $100 a guy, whatever. (The last bar gig I played, with a different band, we all agreed to donate the proceeds to charity... none of us needs $100.)

OK so my drummer pal just told me he wants to play Saturday night at the end of the month at a private party for people who want to have a blow out party before they do a "massive reno" (his words) on their house. And he's going to play for free but will "try" to get us $100. For my $100 I will have to haul, set up, and tear down not only my bass rig but a PA and mics on Saturday night. I'll have help at the venue but ultimately will be loading and unloading. Let's not get into how bad the traffic in Toronto is... especially on Saturday night.

I'm only going to quote one of his texts (and this is a guy I have known for 49 years:

"Watch how quickly I jump at any chance to play live and I'm lugging a poopieload more gear than u...If I get some $ out of it great but I'm not a jobber and I'm not a pro by a long shot so I don't have the same attitude about playing music as u...it's kinda sad"
(he does go on to insult me multiple times, which IS what's sad to me because we are such good friends and it's not like I haven't told him what I think many times).

Anyway, what do you fellow low-enders think?

If you play original punk music, get to trash the house, free drinks or food, and there is a 3-1 single female to male ratio, sure why not!
For a Jazz home renovation party they can afford to pay full price without hassle or they can’t afford to have a Jazz home renovation party.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

If you're charging union scale and not in the union, you're kinda reaping the benefits of the union without "paying your dues" literally and metaphorically. Don't pat yourself on your back too much for helping working musicians.

End of the day, this venture is a hobby for 95% of the people out there. The real pros are doing fine doing pro stuff. The amateurs that are calling themselves pros and telling stories of how they used to play seven nights a week for $300 a man at the local pizza joint are just telling stories.

 

[alex1fly]

OK trying for brevity here but I will probably fail. I'm writing because I'm super frustrated with a friend who on one topic has always been clueless and I thought maybe some of you could assist.

I'm an amateur player in a couple of bands. Many years ago I was taking lessons while I was in a jazz standards band that played small events from time to time. I asked my teacher what we should be charging and he was adamant that we accept no less than union scale. The idea was that giving it away or playing for cheap is terrible for working musicians. I have since heard the same thing from many people who make some or all of their living as musicians. And I've quit bands after playing free gigs (for charity, for example) where everyone else gets paid - the florists, the caterers, the bartenders, the venue, etc. I don't mind playing a charity gig for free as long as everyone else is giving it away too. Otherwise, music ain't free.

My BEST friend, oldest friend, plays drums and we have been playing together for many years, and he loves playing as I do, but he's always willing to play for free and grudgingly will get us gigs that pay $100 a guy, whatever. (The last bar gig I played, with a different band, we all agreed to donate the proceeds to charity... none of us needs $100.)

OK so my drummer pal just told me he wants to play Saturday night at the end of the month at a private party for people who want to have a blow out party before they do a "massive reno" (his words) on their house. And he's going to play for free but will "try" to get us $100. For my $100 I will have to haul, set up, and tear down not only my bass rig but a PA and mics on Saturday night. I'll have help at the venue but ultimately will be loading and unloading. Let's not get into how bad the traffic in Toronto is... especially on Saturday night.

I'm only going to quote one of his texts (and this is a guy I have known for 49 years:

"Watch how quickly I jump at any chance to play live and I'm lugging a poopieload more gear than u...If I get some $ out of it great but I'm not a jobber and I'm not a pro by a long shot so I don't have the same attitude about playing music as u...it's kinda sad"
(he does go on to insult me multiple times, which IS what's sad to me because we are such good friends and it's not like I haven't told him what I think many times).

Anyway, what do you fellow low-enders think?

Doesn't matter what we think. What matters is that you're on the same page as your bandmates.

Pros can be grumpy about other bands playing for free but pros should also be BETTER than amateurs making their product more worthwhile. I wouldn't insist on union wages just so Joe Pro feels better about the music scene.

 

[51PRI]

... I was clear with my bandmates: we do not play for free, if for no other reason than not to devalue live music....

I agree.

If you're charging union scale and not in the union, you're kinda reaping the benefits of the union without "paying your dues"....

I was a member of the musicians union in the 1970's. Our band was "on the road" and we had to be. Musicians Union scale wasn't very much back then and probably isn't now. Don't read "Musician's Union scale" and think "big payday."

 

[Michael Milner]

OK trying for brevity here but I will probably fail. I'm writing because I'm super frustrated with a friend who on one topic has always been clueless and I thought maybe some of you could assist.

I'm an amateur player in a couple of bands. Many years ago I was taking lessons while I was in a jazz standards band that played small events from time to time. I asked my teacher what we should be charging and he was adamant that we accept no less than union scale. The idea was that giving it away or playing for cheap is terrible for working musicians. I have since heard the same thing from many people who make some or all of their living as musicians. And I've quit bands after playing free gigs (for charity, for example) where everyone else gets paid - the florists, the caterers, the bartenders, the venue, etc. I don't mind playing a charity gig for free as long as everyone else is giving it away too. Otherwise, music ain't free.

My BEST friend, oldest friend, plays drums and we have been playing together for many years, and he loves playing as I do, but he's always willing to play for free and grudgingly will get us gigs that pay $100 a guy, whatever. (The last bar gig I played, with a different band, we all agreed to donate the proceeds to charity... none of us needs $100.)

OK so my drummer pal just told me he wants to play Saturday night at the end of the month at a private party for people who want to have a blow out party before they do a "massive reno" (his words) on their house. And he's going to play for free but will "try" to get us $100. For my $100 I will have to haul, set up, and tear down not only my bass rig but a PA and mics on Saturday night. I'll have help at the venue but ultimately will be loading and unloading. Let's not get into how bad the traffic in Toronto is... especially on Saturday night.

I'm only going to quote one of his texts (and this is a guy I have known for 49 years:

"Watch how quickly I jump at any chance to play live and I'm lugging a poopieload more gear than u...If I get some $ out of it great but I'm not a jobber and I'm not a pro by a long shot so I don't have the same attitude about playing music as u...it's kinda sad"
(he does go on to insult me multiple times, which IS what's sad to me because we are such good friends and it's not like I haven't told him what I think many times).

Anyway, what do you fellow low-enders think?

Well as long as you are willing to compromise,....your friend will expect you to play for "free". There is an expectation today amongst some musicians that you shouldn't get paid, and that view is reinforced by a mindset amongst their audience that as a an artist, ii is your responsibility to entertain them (i.e.it's not "cool" to ask for money). IMHO, you set the bar at a certain level and just tell people that is what you expect. If you had just told your buddy you will only play for an audience if you receive a certain amount of compensation, none of this drama would have occurred. OTOH, there is a real paucity of places to play that pay (at least in my neck of the woods), plus some of them are dumps, etc. You can play for free or minimum compensation at some great venues with some great musicians, but you have to decide if that is the path you want to choose. Good luck.

 

[ashtray]

Shoot, I’m trying to think if I’ve ever made $100 at a bar gig! Usually it was $40 and a free beer. One place wanted us to play 9pm-1:30am for $50 each, and we did. They got upset when we took a break, and we were dumbfounded. After that most bar gigs were just 2 hours or so.

We made actual money playing private parties, weddings, etc. But yeah, a casual party getting $100 was decent for us. It adds up. (Weddings we would get $3-500 each.)

The band was fun - so all the hard work loading out of the band rehearsal spot, loading in then out of the gig, then loading back out at the band rehearsal… yeah, that was a huge pain, but just part of the job.

We played some charity gigs for free, which did lead to getting hired for private parties, but after a couple if the band members started offering the band for free to their clubs they were part of, we put a stop to that.

I guess it also depends how good you are. If your band is just average or not very polished, then low paying gigs should be expected, if you can get any gigs.

 

[mrcbass]

We all have different goals regarding pay for music. Some just don't care about it, some cut their own necks trying to get too much. Personally, I worry about the money only because I don't want to help set low standards for others. Otherwise, I really don't care about the pay. Yeah it helps pay for gear, but that's about it.

Expecting union scale is all fine and good, but without knowing what that actually is, I doubt that I'd get any gigs in my market because that's just not the going rate.

Basically, everyone needs to determine what they are willing to play for or not. It's best that all members of a band are on the same page - or else you find yourself with this problem. I'm fine with playing free for benefits/charity and cheap for an introductory gig with expectations of better pay for return bookings.

 

[CanaDave]

Really appreciate all of your thoughts on this! Whoa I was pissed off yesterday. Not so much today.

Just to clarify though: My drummer buddy is as close as a brother, perhaps closer, and forever, whether we piss each other off or not. His daughters call me uncle and I have their backs, also forever...

And when we play we're often in sync... I know where he's going, he knows where I'm going. We do play with other people and other bands.

The point of the thread was not so much to "set him straight" but to get a range of opinions... admittedly the subject keeps coming up between us, for decades now, and he doesn't seem to understand my outlook on the subject and that it is, if not "RIGHT" then at least it's a reasonable outlook. FYI both bands I'm in have been playing for free in good weather since COVID in my mother-in-law's garage for passers-by and friends so it's not like I won't play for free ever.

Again, really appreciate you and your input.

 

[bucephylus]

IME, FWIW: Playing a gig for $100 per player constitutes “getting paid” for most of my gigs. Sure, weddings and private events may well be a different scale; but, some aren’t.

Playing “for free” means to me that no money is involved. I have done those at worthy venues, such as VA hospitals and that kind of thing. But, those kinds of gigs are for sure a personal choice.

Not sure if that adds additional perspective; but, that’s my perspective. Getting gigs is a whole other art form. The ones I book for my projects will be booked for as much as I feel the particular market will bear. The gigs I don’t book are not my responsibility; and I’ll take them or not, depending on a whole range of factors. But, one thing I do not do is play events for free, when the customer has budget for the entertainment. In general. There can always be exceptions. Common sense usually helps.

 

[flojob]

Wish I could like this twice.

If you're charging union scale and not in the union, you're kinda reaping the benefits of the union without "paying your dues" literally and metaphorically. Don't pat yourself on your back too much for helping working musicians.

End of the day, this venture is a hobby for 95% of the people out there. The real pros are doing fine doing pro stuff. The amateurs that are calling themselves pros and telling stories of how they used to play seven nights a week for $300 a man at the local pizza joint are just telling stories.

 

[Jefenator]

He's got his terms, you've got yours.

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

OK trying for brevity here but I will probably fail. I'm writing because I'm super frustrated with a friend who on one topic has always been clueless and I thought maybe some of you could assist.

I'm an amateur player in a couple of bands. Many years ago I was taking lessons while I was in a jazz standards band that played small events from time to time. I asked my teacher what we should be charging and he was adamant that we accept no less than union scale. The idea was that giving it away or playing for cheap is terrible for working musicians. I have since heard the same thing from many people who make some or all of their living as musicians. And I've quit bands after playing free gigs (for charity, for example) where everyone else gets paid - the florists, the caterers, the bartenders, the venue, etc. I don't mind playing a charity gig for free as long as everyone else is giving it away too. Otherwise, music ain't free.

My BEST friend, oldest friend, plays drums and we have been playing together for many years, and he loves playing as I do, but he's always willing to play for free and grudgingly will get us gigs that pay $100 a guy, whatever. (The last bar gig I played, with a different band, we all agreed to donate the proceeds to charity... none of us needs $100.)

OK so my drummer pal just told me he wants to play Saturday night at the end of the month at a private party for people who want to have a blow out party before they do a "massive reno" (his words) on their house. And he's going to play for free but will "try" to get us $100. For my $100 I will have to haul, set up, and tear down not only my bass rig but a PA and mics on Saturday night. I'll have help at the venue but ultimately will be loading and unloading. Let's not get into how bad the traffic in Toronto is... especially on Saturday night.

I'm only going to quote one of his texts (and this is a guy I have known for 49 years:

"Watch how quickly I jump at any chance to play live and I'm lugging a poopieload more gear than u...If I get some $ out of it great but I'm not a jobber and I'm not a pro by a long shot so I don't have the same attitude about playing music as u...it's kinda sad"
(he does go on to insult me multiple times, which IS what's sad to me because we are such good friends and it's not like I haven't told him what I think many times).

Anyway, what do you fellow low-enders think?

"Watch how quickly I jump at any chance to play live and I'm lugging a poopieload more gear than u...If I get some $ out of it great but I'm not a jobber and I'm not a pro by a long shot so I don't have the same attitude about playing music as u...it's kinda sad"
(he does go on to insult me multiple times, which IS what's sad to me because we are such good friends and it's not like I haven't told him what I think many times).

Anyway, what do you fellow low-enders think?"

Dude, a friend?
I'd call him on that BS.
Forget everything else, ain't nobody got time for that.
Friends?
I'd "re-evaluate the nature of that relationship" if I were you.

 

[SoCal80s]

There's no need for a big discussion or to try to convince him. If he's willing to play for free, that's his business. But if he wants you to play with him then your fee is $xxx and either the gig pays it or they get someone else. You can leave it at that.

 

[Rabidhamster]

Really appreciate all of your thoughts on this! Whoa I was pissed off yesterday. Not so much today.

Just to clarify though: My drummer buddy is as close as a brother, perhaps closer, and forever, whether we piss each other off or not. His daughters call me uncle and I have their backs, also forever...

And when we play we're often in sync... I know where he's going, he knows where I'm going. We do play with other people and other bands.

The point of the thread was not so much to "set him straight" but to get a range of opinions... admittedly the subject keeps coming up between us, for decades now, and he doesn't seem to understand my outlook on the subject and that it is, if not "RIGHT" then at least it's a reasonable outlook. FYI both bands I'm in have been playing for free in good weather since COVID in my mother-in-law's garage for passers-by and friends so it's not like I won't play for free ever.

Again, really appreciate you and your input.

Playing for free at your own venue is a great way to do it.
Regarding the original scenario I’d change my tune if these are friends of the band and you’d hang out at their place anyway, sure why not have fun. I think it’s totally ok to have fun for free.
Not to beat a dead horse but a more concise way to have said it would probably be I think it would be weird and uncomfortable to be in someone’s home not as friends but only to play music and not get paid.

 

[ChrisB2]

the subject keeps coming up between us, for decades now, and he doesn't seem to understand my outlook on the subject and that it is, if not "RIGHT" then at least it's a reasonable outlook.

With respect, I don't think you're understanding his outlook any better. His insults were out of line, but obviously you two are both pretty set in your ways regarding being paid vs playing for free, yet still keep trying to get the other to come to your side.

If you want him to accept your position as "reasonable" (which it is) then you should also be able to accept his (which it is). If you're not, then might I recommend some personal introspection? Once you can accept his position as being right for HIM, perhaps he will come around to see that your position is right for YOU.

 

[Pocket Dave]

OK trying for brevity here but I will probably fail. I'm writing because I'm super frustrated with a friend who on one topic has always been clueless and I thought maybe some of you could assist.

I'm an amateur player in a couple of bands. Many years ago I was taking lessons while I was in a jazz standards band that played small events from time to time. I asked my teacher what we should be charging and he was adamant that we accept no less than union scale. The idea was that giving it away or playing for cheap is terrible for working musicians. I have since heard the same thing from many people who make some or all of their living as musicians. And I've quit bands after playing free gigs (for charity, for example) where everyone else gets paid - the florists, the caterers, the bartenders, the venue, etc. I don't mind playing a charity gig for free as long as everyone else is giving it away too. Otherwise, music ain't free.

My BEST friend, oldest friend, plays drums and we have been playing together for many years, and he loves playing as I do, but he's always willing to play for free and grudgingly will get us gigs that pay $100 a guy, whatever. (The last bar gig I played, with a different band, we all agreed to donate the proceeds to charity... none of us needs $100.)

OK so my drummer pal just told me he wants to play Saturday night at the end of the month at a private party for people who want to have a blow out party before they do a "massive reno" (his words) on their house. And he's going to play for free but will "try" to get us $100. For my $100 I will have to haul, set up, and tear down not only my bass rig but a PA and mics on Saturday night. I'll have help at the venue but ultimately will be loading and unloading. Let's not get into how bad the traffic in Toronto is... especially on Saturday night.

I'm only going to quote one of his texts (and this is a guy I have known for 49 years:

"Watch how quickly I jump at any chance to play live and I'm lugging a poopieload more gear than u...If I get some $ out of it great but I'm not a jobber and I'm not a pro by a long shot so I don't have the same attitude about playing music as u...it's kinda sad"
(he does go on to insult me multiple times, which IS what's sad to me because we are such good friends and it's not like I haven't told him what I think many times).

Anyway, what do you fellow low-enders think?

My .02/what's worked for me:

One of life's valuable lessons I've latched onto is how to say "no" to someone politely and succinctly. No further explanation is necessary, especially if it just gives that person talking points to argue against.

Which is part of the bigger life-lesson I've latched onto, that I only hold sway over my own thoughts, feelings and actions, not yours or your friend's.

That your friend doesn't fully understand how to disagree without making it personal is just one example of something I would have no control of, nor interest in controlling or changing.

I simply don't have to accept every invitation to argue. Fortunately for me, most of the time I find I'd rather have some peace of mind. Not my monkeys, not my circus.

What I would do in your situation going forward is simply not work the freebies, offering "thanks but no-thanks", and leaving it at that. In your case, that would be a self-evident response, since your friend now knows how you feel about working freebies. No value in further discussion.

And if he were my friend and were to start pushing my buttons again, I'd refuse to further engage or respond. People tend to stop arguing quickly when they're the only one on stage. Silence can be an effective tool here. If I'm tempted to respond, I might even remind myself that his inability to not take stuff personally is on him, and that I owe no one free rent in my head.

Last night I was on the phone with my brother, who likes to argue conspiracy and politics. In the past, we'd be off to the races with a pointless and exhausting argument where I'd fiercely imply his delusions on multiple levels. Last night I simply had to say, "You're starting in on a subject you think we're going 9 rounds on. We're not."