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Need help setting someone straight - your POV please

OK trying for brevity here but I will probably fail. I'm writing because I'm super frustrated with a friend who on one topic has always been clueless and I thought maybe some of you could assist.

I'm an amateur player in a couple of bands. Many years ago I was taking lessons while I was in a jazz standards band that played small events from time to time. I asked my teacher what we should be charging and he was adamant that we accept no less than union scale. The idea was that giving it away or playing for cheap is terrible for working musicians. I have since heard the same thing from many people who make some or all of their living as musicians. And I've quit bands after playing free gigs (for charity, for example) where everyone else gets paid - the florists, the caterers, the bartenders, the venue, etc. I don't mind playing a charity gig for free as long as everyone else is giving it away too. Otherwise, music ain't free.

My BEST friend, oldest friend, plays drums and we have been playing together for many years, and he loves playing as I do, but he's always willing to play for free and grudgingly will get us gigs that pay $100 a guy, whatever. (The last bar gig I played, with a different band, we all agreed to donate the proceeds to charity... none of us needs $100.)

OK so my drummer pal just told me he wants to play Saturday night at the end of the month at a private party for people who want to have a blow out party before they do a "massive reno" (his words) on their house. And he's going to play for free but will "try" to get us $100. For my $100 I will have to haul, set up, and tear down not only my bass rig but a PA and mics on Saturday night. I'll have help at the venue but ultimately will be loading and unloading. Let's not get into how bad the traffic in Toronto is... especially on Saturday night.

I'm only going to quote one of his texts (and this is a guy I have known for 49 years:

"Watch how quickly I jump at any chance to play live and I'm lugging a poopieload more gear than u...If I get some $ out of it great but I'm not a jobber and I'm not a pro by a long shot so I don't have the same attitude about playing music as u...it's kinda sad"
(he does go on to insult me multiple times, which IS what's sad to me because we are such good friends and it's not like I haven't told him what I think many times).

Anyway, what do you fellow low-enders think?

As per usual, it comes down to common courtesy/respect.

I am the only person who can put a dollar value on my time. Yes, the market decides, but that's a factor for me to consider when I am doing my calculation.

You are the only person who can put a value on your time.

If I'm a BL and you're my bass player, I've decided what that position is worth to me; what I'm willing to pay someone to fill that position. We'll say: "$100"

I offer you a spot in the band and tell you what you'll make. You have already decided your time is worth $150

We have to either negotiate a price or decide we just can't work together.

I have to ask something, though: Is there some kind of substance abuse, here? Alcoholics/addicts are known to be "insecure egomaniacs". They act like they're the biggest bad___ you're ever going to meet until they have to prove it (" ... and I'm not a pro by a long shot.")
 
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"I'm not a pro by a long shot so I don't have the same attitude about playing music as u...it's kinda sad"

Yeah, he makes it pretty evident he's not a pro. Too bad he has disdain for those who choose to be.


...he does go on to insult me multiple times...

And that would be the end for me.
 
Quote: “(he does go on to insult me multiple times, which IS what's sad to me because we are such good friends”


“Familiarity breeds contempt” the saying goes.

Its wonderful to be in a group where everyone is united and are good friends.

But wherever there are people, there are problems; and the history of most such relationships, even close ones, is that they disintegrate over time.

That is, unless everyone works hard at maintaining good relationships as required in a marriage. Where there are principles and rules understood and accepted by all involved from the start, especially arrangements about money. Or where there is an additional factor that acts as a uniting agent of motivation actuating everyone.


But being so close that someone believes they are entitled to criticise and insult you, in an ongoing manner, is clearly a case where familiarity has become contempt.

Perhaps you are a thoroughly reasonable person, who attempts to do all you can to maintain relationships, which speaks well of you. However, its entirely possible that such reasonableness, can become an enabling factor, emboldening the abuser.

Whereas, a timely strong rebuff, might cause such an individual to realise that they had overstepped their bounds.

That an apology might be necessary from them, to restore the status quo.


As much as I had the inestimable pleasure of belonging to groups of closely united individuals.

Over time I have learnt, especially as I moved into leadership roles, that it is a mistake to allow people to become too close and familiar.

That a definite, but almost imperceivably, mutual respectful distance, will over time prove to be the most effective manner, with which to maintain good, lasting relationships.


The word “familiarity” is derived from the word “family”.

But members of musical groups are not the same as one’s family members.

And they shouldn’t be allowed to presume the same entitlements and rights that a blood tied family member would.


I think your friend needs to be reminded that the matter in question is one that you both have legitimate, but completely different views on.

That its important to keep that in mind, that its okay for you both to disagree upon such matters, as long as you can agree to disagree, without being disagreeable.

That if he is going to insult you, because you have a different opinion to him. That will inevitably lead to the type of disintegration that is common to many involved in group relationships.


He has a choice.

To respect and value, you, your musical contribution and your personal point of view.

Or continue to consider himself the oracle of all wisdom imbued with the right and entitlement to dictate other people’s opinions and tell them what to think.

For as they age, many people tend to become solidly cemented in their outlook on life, and openly intolerant of others, who do not share their narrow, personal conceit.


At the end of the day.

Different individuals vary in the factors that motivate them.

But over time, the reasons that first motivated them, often become morphed by personal experience.

Finally, there are a number of different elements that ultimately form the various strands, which eventually actuate them.

There have to be enough genuinely anticipated, positively beneficial elements, to effectively balance out the cost involved with such activities.

But one singular, constantly harping, wholly negative factor such as your "friends", can make the entire musical adventure proposal, seem to no longer be worth the biscuit.

He needs to understand that with crystal clarity.
 
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Insulting you in this is just wrong and a passive aggressive way to wrangle you into it. That is what really needs to be addressed here. As for paying gigs , if you can get it great if not and you just love to play that’s great too. I’m in Nashville and on any given night you find some of the best musicians on Earth playing for free. Its not always about money ime. All the best!
 
OK trying for brevity here but I will probably fail. I'm writing because I'm super frustrated with a friend who on one topic has always been clueless and I thought maybe some of you could assist.

I'm an amateur player in a couple of bands. Many years ago I was taking lessons while I was in a jazz standards band that played small events from time to time. I asked my teacher what we should be charging and he was adamant that we accept no less than union scale. The idea was that giving it away or playing for cheap is terrible for working musicians. I have since heard the same thing from many people who make some or all of their living as musicians. And I've quit bands after playing free gigs (for charity, for example) where everyone else gets paid - the florists, the caterers, the bartenders, the venue, etc. I don't mind playing a charity gig for free as long as everyone else is giving it away too. Otherwise, music ain't free.

My BEST friend, oldest friend, plays drums and we have been playing together for many years, and he loves playing as I do, but he's always willing to play for free and grudgingly will get us gigs that pay $100 a guy, whatever. (The last bar gig I played, with a different band, we all agreed to donate the proceeds to charity... none of us needs $100.)

OK so my drummer pal just told me he wants to play Saturday night at the end of the month at a private party for people who want to have a blow out party before they do a "massive reno" (his words) on their house. And he's going to play for free but will "try" to get us $100. For my $100 I will have to haul, set up, and tear down not only my bass rig but a PA and mics on Saturday night. I'll have help at the venue but ultimately will be loading and unloading. Let's not get into how bad the traffic in Toronto is... especially on Saturday night.

I'm only going to quote one of his texts (and this is a guy I have known for 49 years:

"Watch how quickly I jump at any chance to play live and I'm lugging a poopieload more gear than u...If I get some $ out of it great but I'm not a jobber and I'm not a pro by a long shot so I don't have the same attitude about playing music as u...it's kinda sad"
(he does go on to insult me multiple times, which IS what's sad to me because we are such good friends and it's not like I haven't told him what I think many times).

Anyway, what do you fellow low-enders think?
I mean, he’s insulting you, the question of whether I want to play with him at that point has nothing to do with money.
 
It's a private party. They own a house. They have the means to renovate the house. They have the means to liquor up and feed their guests. Ask the Reno blowout holders if they asked any other vendor (caterer, liquor store, florist) to donate their goods and services.
I'm looking around my man cave at $20,000 in retail purchases. My band owns another 5 grand in PA purchases. The amortization on this is a little complex, but let's just say we don't play "free" gigs. I'm donating my goods and services to an actual benefit in a week or so. Someone put it together from a non profit for the sober community. I have no problem playing one or two benefits per year.
 
Always know what you and your time are worth.
it is work and it is time. So approach it as such. how much do you want to get paid per hr. or a flat fee for set hr/hrs. your friend can play for free, doesn't mean you have too.
 
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play for free, you need to be straight up with your friend and reel him back to reality.




sienfeld.gif
 
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OK trying for brevity here but I will probably fail. I'm writing because I'm super frustrated with a friend who on one topic has always been clueless and I thought maybe some of you could assist.

I'm an amateur player in a couple of bands. Many years ago I was taking lessons while I was in a jazz standards band that played small events from time to time. I asked my teacher what we should be charging and he was adamant that we accept no less than union scale. The idea was that giving it away or playing for cheap is terrible for working musicians. I have since heard the same thing from many people who make some or all of their living as musicians. And I've quit bands after playing free gigs (for charity, for example) where everyone else gets paid - the florists, the caterers, the bartenders, the venue, etc. I don't mind playing a charity gig for free as long as everyone else is giving it away too. Otherwise, music ain't free.

My BEST friend, oldest friend, plays drums and we have been playing together for many years, and he loves playing as I do, but he's always willing to play for free and grudgingly will get us gigs that pay $100 a guy, whatever. (The last bar gig I played, with a different band, we all agreed to donate the proceeds to charity... none of us needs $100.)

OK so my drummer pal just told me he wants to play Saturday night at the end of the month at a private party for people who want to have a blow out party before they do a "massive reno" (his words) on their house. And he's going to play for free but will "try" to get us $100. For my $100 I will have to haul, set up, and tear down not only my bass rig but a PA and mics on Saturday night. I'll have help at the venue but ultimately will be loading and unloading. Let's not get into how bad the traffic in Toronto is... especially on Saturday night.

I'm only going to quote one of his texts (and this is a guy I have known for 49 years:

"Watch how quickly I jump at any chance to play live and I'm lugging a poopieload more gear than u...If I get some $ out of it great but I'm not a jobber and I'm not a pro by a long shot so I don't have the same attitude about playing music as u...it's kinda sad"
(he does go on to insult me multiple times, which IS what's sad to me because we are such good friends and it's not like I haven't told him what I think many times).

Anyway, what do you fellow low-enders think?

Fellow Canuck and former Torontonian here.

I play in a cover band these days. Some of us could use the money from paid gigs, others don't need it. From the beginning I was clear with my bandmates: we do not play for free, if for no other reason than not to devalue live music. There are musicians who rely on the money they make from gigs to put food on the table, and I want no hand in making it more difficult for them to do so.

My advice: keep bringing it back to this principle when speaking to your friend. If he's not comfortable asking to be paid, then I suggest you offer to be the one who negotiates fees in the future.

Good luck!

J
 
This thread reveals the true musician spirit, that's for sure. All about the art and putting smiles on faces.

Socialist playwright Bertolt Brecht was one criticized for how well he lived in the Soviet-controlled GDR compared to other members of the proletariat, for indeed he was better off than one would suspect.

His response was that “the bearer of truth must survive”.
 
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I once quoted a price for a private gig. I was told it was too much and they can only afford half of that quote. I said okay but that would mean only 2 of us would show up to play instead of the normal 5 and it would be an acoustic gig. I also advised them and that if they asked their caterer to cut their price in half, the caterer would provide half the service. They gave me the "exposure" line. I told them we didn't need exposure; we need to be compensated for being away from our families on a Saturday night. Then I was told "In that case we'll just hire a DJ". I told them if they feel that's the better option, to go ahead.

I am curious: who was this "exposure" going to be to anyway?

I like the exposure bit; it is always humorous to hear and the times that exposure is a real benefit are few and far between.
 
I dont like free gigs but they have their place and thats fine, but I dont think its up to anyone how I donate my time.

They can ask and for a good cause etc etc...but a house reno is not a good enough cause anyway.

Tell him your price for this gig...and I assume he'll be good to his word.. and say yes or no to the date

I'd never assume I could book someone without paying them. If they declined payment, thats fine.
 
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I had a drummer who was like a brother to me since the late '70's. When our musical taste's and business decisions were no longer compatible we parted ways (musically not personally). Sometimes you have to make that choice when it doesn't work for you. I'm not opposed to the occasional free gig if the event will be fun, but I would never book one and expect everyone else to do it for free too.
 
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