+1 on another sub and crossover, if you and the PA owner ever part ways, consider it an addition to your bass rig. Also your kick is going through a lot of stuff before it hits the speakers, double check the input and output levels on each piece of gear along the way, lot's of opportunity for distortion there.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
need more than 8x10 - what next?
- Thread starter morebass!
- Start date
Why do you need to amp the kick at all? If he is using a jazz kit, tell him to get a bigger kick drum.
It sounds like both the guitar and the drums are trying to be too bass heavy.
It sounds like both the guitar and the drums are trying to be too bass heavy.
For what my 2 cents is worth, the problem is the PA; however you need to do it, bump that up and maybe even turn down onstage. This isn't 1968, and you don't need to be filling the house with stage volume.
He uses a trigger on the kick. Nothing else goes into the PA. Not needed really. We had a brain already so buying a trigger was cheaper than buying a good bass drum mic. Maybe not a true vintage tone but we're just looking to get a good thump. I'll have to look into whether the brain he's using adds any compression or not.
Sorry I missed this question earlier. There is crossover in the PA Rack. It has an adustable x-over freq which I think is pretty low. The mains have 15s in them.
+10
Definition of insanity: Doing the same thing with the same type of equipment over and over but expecting differemt results. Look into something new which really works.
Ah yes, you guys played the Hody.
That place rips most bass rigs to shreds. You have to have really forward low mids to survive there, as well as power out the wazoo. The room is kind of weird, and it just kills bass tone. It can suck up a full SVT and ask for more. It's like punching Mongo.
Stage volumes here in Madison have hit the level of insane. House PA's seem to be nonexistant, and the volume clubs desire is LOUD. That together with joints like the Hody with just plain strange acoustics does not make our lives easy.
For you guys in the rest of the world - to play in a mid priced cover band around here requires a rig capable of setting off an earthquake. The bar gigs can be 300+ peeps, and the bigger clubs are more than double that. Most of them haven't a house system.
I'm lucky - I escaped the cover scene. Playing coffee house gigs these days. I can still hear a doorbell...
That place rips most bass rigs to shreds. You have to have really forward low mids to survive there, as well as power out the wazoo. The room is kind of weird, and it just kills bass tone. It can suck up a full SVT and ask for more. It's like punching Mongo.
Stage volumes here in Madison have hit the level of insane. House PA's seem to be nonexistant, and the volume clubs desire is LOUD. That together with joints like the Hody with just plain strange acoustics does not make our lives easy.
For you guys in the rest of the world - to play in a mid priced cover band around here requires a rig capable of setting off an earthquake. The bar gigs can be 300+ peeps, and the bigger clubs are more than double that. Most of them haven't a house system.
I'm lucky - I escaped the cover scene. Playing coffee house gigs these days. I can still hear a doorbell...
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
- Sep 15, 2004
- 16,860
- 278
- 76
- Disclosures
- Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
Get your PA and your PA skills up to snuff. One 18? The minimum is four. A band's sound is only as good as its PA. Or as bad.
I was a roadie for years for a signed national act that played arenas, the bassist used a single 4x10 and a line out. Band members should be able to converse with each other on stage, which is obviously not an option in the situation described. Your amplifier is there so you can hear it, and you can send a signal to the PA, it is not designed to fill the entire venue from the stage. Ideally people in the first row should not hear your amplifier at all. Stage volume creates hot spots, the goal of the soundman and the PA is to create an even mix for everyone in the venue.
+ 100
Compressor/limiter would be better.
A DBX 166XL works on my bass "pops and slaps" quite well.
The Hody seems like a place that used to exist "down the bayou" in Louisiana. It was most likely a supermarket or department store converted to a disco and then a rock/live music club. When the "disco to rock/live music" conversion happened....the interior just got a stage and the multi-level, carpeted floor-to-ceiling stuff stayed...even mirror ball stayed. That place was like Hody. My rig was an SVT with TWO 8x10's(1/side) and an Acoustic 370 with 301 cabinet(my side) + Cerwin-Vega B36(?) on other side. I was VERY glad I had the two 18's that night(usually our manager would complain that I was too loud OUTSIDE!
). That night, NO ONE complained about the bass being too loud....
Dude, my 810 is sealed as well, and volume is not an issue, seriously, something must be wrong in your setup!
How big are the gigs your playing at this volume? are you playing in huge halls to over a thousand people or something?
These GK410s only handle 400 watts. They claim to be 102db sensitive, but its sounding like they're just not very loud cabs, or they don't have a cutting voice, or the head isn't giving them enough power. 8 10s should be plenty if the system is high quality and voiced for volume.
I don't usually go in for recommending specific brands, but in this case I will:
A pair of Eden D-410XLTs would handle 700 watts each. Get those and an amp that can push ~1400-1600 watts into 4 ohms (assuming you buy 8 ohm cabs) or a stereo amp with at least 2x700 into 8 ... if thats not working its pretty hopeless.
Something like this:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
or a Crest CA9.
The Edens also have a very cutting tone that works great in a loud setting.
I don't usually go in for recommending specific brands, but in this case I will:
A pair of Eden D-410XLTs would handle 700 watts each. Get those and an amp that can push ~1400-1600 watts into 4 ohms (assuming you buy 8 ohm cabs) or a stereo amp with at least 2x700 into 8 ... if thats not working its pretty hopeless.
Something like this:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
or a Crest CA9.
The Edens also have a very cutting tone that works great in a loud setting.
The old theory was to play loud on stage and then the sound guy can take care of everyone else. More gear to hear yourself the better.
At one time I subscribed to this theory.
Since then I have learned that it is not about the stage volume. It is the total mix of the FOH, Monitors, and the Stage volume.
I haven't played, lately, in a large venue. But, I would think that if you were using an 8x10 on one side of the stage and another on the other side that should be plenty for the stage volume - your amp sound. Then the Direct out on your amp/pre amp should feed the house and the monitors.
I agree with many of the other posts. Learn to play within the limits. A better, not necessarily better, PA is in order.
Go to the big shows and look at what they are using. Take that information from every live gig that you see/hear and make the correlation. What should you be using for a particular room. In my mind it takes at least 2x the bass to the mid-top end of the pa to work a room correctly.
I am playing rooms up to 600+ and my 410 fills the stage nicely. I use the Direct/Recording out and feed the FOH and the monitors. The guys in the band do the same. They sound guys love the setup because they have complete control of the room. They can add, subtract, and many other math things, to make the sound amazing for the audience - as it should be.
Let go. Let the FOH do it's job. Make the monitors do their job. And have the correct concept with your onstage sound levels.
Not a slam, please don't read that into this post. Just info from an old guy.
At one time I subscribed to this theory.
Since then I have learned that it is not about the stage volume. It is the total mix of the FOH, Monitors, and the Stage volume.
I haven't played, lately, in a large venue. But, I would think that if you were using an 8x10 on one side of the stage and another on the other side that should be plenty for the stage volume - your amp sound. Then the Direct out on your amp/pre amp should feed the house and the monitors.
I agree with many of the other posts. Learn to play within the limits. A better, not necessarily better, PA is in order.
Go to the big shows and look at what they are using. Take that information from every live gig that you see/hear and make the correlation. What should you be using for a particular room. In my mind it takes at least 2x the bass to the mid-top end of the pa to work a room correctly.
I am playing rooms up to 600+ and my 410 fills the stage nicely. I use the Direct/Recording out and feed the FOH and the monitors. The guys in the band do the same. They sound guys love the setup because they have complete control of the room. They can add, subtract, and many other math things, to make the sound amazing for the audience - as it should be.
Let go. Let the FOH do it's job. Make the monitors do their job. And have the correct concept with your onstage sound levels.
Not a slam, please don't read that into this post. Just info from an old guy.
Nup im all for upgrading the PA ... add some subs to it and get your mix right as far as Subs and FOH.
Other wise your going to run out of stage room before you get the volume your after.
Look at most areana type concerts smallish rig (8x10)and a **** load of power amps, subs, crossovers etc all facing towards the crowd infront of the stage. (Note Not Behind you)
Yeah What stumpy said !!
Vegie
Other wise your going to run out of stage room before you get the volume your after.
Look at most areana type concerts smallish rig (8x10)and a **** load of power amps, subs, crossovers etc all facing towards the crowd infront of the stage. (Note Not Behind you)
Yeah What stumpy said !!
Vegie
The Hody is about 125' square, with a 16' ceiling. The bar area is approx 20' wide, and 60' long centered off the back wall. Dance floor is right in front of the band, about 30' deep. Stage is less than one foot above dance floor. No house sound. Gets totally packed on any good night. 200 - 300 Boomers ready to party...
The dimensions seem to be just right to suck the tone out of most bass rigs. I'd run a SVT there, except for fear of killing everone on the dance floor.
The dimensions seem to be just right to suck the tone out of most bass rigs. I'd run a SVT there, except for fear of killing everone on the dance floor.
One more thing...
Most of the bands in Madison are dependant on stage mix. The joints we're playing are not all that big (just packed) moving to to a PA big enough to handle everything seems like overkill. 'Round here, you can spit beer from the stage to the back of the dance floor. It is kind of hard to find the right size - put the dough into PA or into stage rigs. The good places here have a large crowd in a small space. I'm also stumped...
Most of the bands in Madison are dependant on stage mix. The joints we're playing are not all that big (just packed) moving to to a PA big enough to handle everything seems like overkill. 'Round here, you can spit beer from the stage to the back of the dance floor. It is kind of hard to find the right size - put the dough into PA or into stage rigs. The good places here have a large crowd in a small space. I'm also stumped...
