need more than 8x10 - what next?

[mobax]

I was a roadie for years for a signed national act that played arenas, the bassist used a single 4x10 and a line out. Band members should be able to converse with each other on stage, which is obviously not an option in the situation described. Your amplifier is there so you can hear it, and you can send a signal to the PA, it is not designed to fill the entire venue from the stage. Ideally people in the first row should not hear your amplifier at all. Stage volume creates hot spots, the goal of the soundman and the PA is to create an even mix for everyone in the venue.

Very good post and 100% accurate.

 

[joegeezer]

One more thing...

Most of the bands in Madison are dependant on stage mix. The joints we're playing are not all that big (just packed) moving to to a PA big enough to handle everything seems like overkill. 'Round here, you can spit beer from the stage to the back of the dance floor. It is kind of hard to find the right size - put the dough into PA or into stage rigs. The good places here have a large crowd in a small space. I'm also stumped...

Saw your thread here, and maybe this would help. I was just watching and old Zepplin video today, and it made me think of something. Jones used two Acoustic 360's, and it made me think about my old 360 , and 370. The band I played in back then, we used to get complaints all the time, at the back of the club, from the bartender to turn the bass down. Those old Acoustic folded horns, throw the sound way out, about 50 to 75 feet from the stage, where the sound wave seems to converge. I always had trouble hearing myself on stage with the amp, but the bottles were vibrating off the bar, at the back of the club. One of those old folded horns, may be your answer to getting the bass out there. I'd use a standard front loaded cab, on stage with you, so you can hear yourself better though. They are hard to hear for yourself, up close. Good Luck!!

 

[AaronS]

I was a roadie for years for a signed national act that played arenas, the bassist used a single 4x10 and a line out. Band members should be able to converse with each other on stage, which is obviously not an option in the situation described. Your amplifier is there so you can hear it, and you can send a signal to the PA, it is not designed to fill the entire venue from the stage. Ideally people in the first row should not hear your amplifier at all. Stage volume creates hot spots, the goal of the soundman and the PA is to create an even mix for everyone in the venue.

Absolutely +1000
And as Bill FitzMaurice said, Get your PA skill up to snuff. Or get yourself a sound man who can really work sound.

 

[morebass!]

Interceptor - You hit it on the head! The Hody is the worst. In most other places the 8 tens do okay. On Saturday night (with my 1400 watts GK/Crest/Bag End rig) my sound was plenty loud on stage but when I walked out to the middle of the dance floor, (at the end of my 25' cable) there wasn't much bottom. It was all mids.

Nice to hear from someone local! And it's good to hear I'm not the only one who has experienced this. I don't get out much except to play in my band so don't know a lot of bass players around here. Funny thing about some of these bars is that some of them have killer PAs that they use for DJs/Karoke and won't let bands use them

.

Ah yes, you guys played the Hody.

That place rips most bass rigs to shreds. You have to have really forward low mids to survive there, as well as power out the wazoo. The room is kind of weird, and it just kills bass tone. It can suck up a full SVT and ask for more. It's like punching Mongo.

Stage volumes here in Madison have hit the level of insane. House PA's seem to be nonexistant, and the volume clubs desire is LOUD. That together with joints like the Hody with just plain strange acoustics does not make our lives easy.

For you guys in the rest of the world - to play in a mid priced cover band around here requires a rig capable of setting off an earthquake. The bar gigs can be 300+ peeps, and the bigger clubs are more than double that. Most of them haven't a house system.

I'm lucky - I escaped the cover scene. Playing coffee house gigs these days. I can still hear a doorbell...

 

[andrewd]

you should look into fitted earplugs. most of the time, they will sound great, but i have been at a few places where they made everything sound muddier than without.

 

[morebass!]

Thanks for the input. No offense taken to this or any of the similar posts. However, note that around here the PA is carried by the band and that my band doesn't have a sound man. Probably considered primative by folks in more musically sophisticated areas. But that's the situation and if I want to keep playing I have to make the best of it.

So I guess what people are saying is to make sure the PA is set up correctly and then add on to the PA if anything. I think I'll try the compressor on the kick and bass and start feeding bass through the PA. If we need it I'll add another sub to the PA. Not nearly as fun as buying another amp

... it is not about the stage volume. It is the total mix of the FOH, Monitors, and the Stage volume.....it takes at least 2x the bass to the mid-top end of the pa to work a room correctly...Let go. Let the FOH do it's job. Make the monitors do their job. And have the correct concept with your onstage sound levels.

Not a slam, please don't read that into this post. Just info from an old guy.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

However, note that around here the PA is carried by the band and that my band doesn't have a sound man. Probably considered primative by folks in more musically sophisticated areas. But that's the situation and if I want to keep playing I have to make the best of it.

Fact of life: places that don't pay squat don't provide PA. Places that pay very well provide full PA. If you expect to make the move from the one to the other you will have to supply a good PA or you'll never build the rep it takes to make the real money. Expensive? Yes. Deal with it. It's the cost of doing business.

 

[morebass!]

Yeah another 18 is probably needed. BTW Bill, I checked out your website and am intrigued by your designs. I wonder what a DR250 and T39 would do for me. I don't have time to build them though. Thanks for your input.

Get your PA and your PA skills up to snuff. One 18? The minimum is four. A band's sound is only as good as its PA. Or as bad.

 

[bikeplate]

HI

Interesting. I play large rooms all the time. 800 watts thru a 3x10. Your PA must be very poor or used incorrectly. 2 8x10's?

Are you playing the Garden? ***?

You really should take some time and figure out your PA. Get your band some cleaner power amps and go from there. Figure out how to use them correctly

Rob

 

[morebass!]

The SBXs are about average loudness. I like them because they have a tight, warm tone are less than 90 pounds and are a little smaller than most 4x10s. I can move both at once on a hand truck. Like an SVT they are sealed. The ported Bag End Q10 was definitely louder but really gobbled up the power too. I like the Eden stuff but redoing my whole rig as you suggest would cost a few $k and that's not in the cards right now. I guess the Edens are 108db sensitive so that would probably do the trick. If I was to start over again....

The 1550 is an interesting idea...a power amp with tone controls! What will they think of next?

These GK410s only handle 400 watts. They claim to be 102db sensitive, but its sounding like they're just not very loud cabs, or they don't have a cutting voice, or the head isn't giving them enough power. 8 10s should be plenty if the system is high quality and voiced for volume.

I don't usually go in for recommending specific brands, but in this case I will:

A pair of Eden D-410XLTs would handle 700 watts each. Get those and an amp that can push ~1400-1600 watts into 4 ohms (assuming you buy 8 ohm cabs) or a stereo amp with at least 2x700 into 8 ... if thats not working its pretty hopeless.

Something like this:

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or a Crest CA9.

The Edens also have a very cutting tone that works great in a loud setting.

 

[enim]

My thought is this.

Depending on the board type your using, it sounds like you need to first check the levels of your triggered kick, be sure its staying right at the bottom of yellow (no clip whatsoever). Then check your amplifier, be sure its not clipping.

Then, purchase a new subwoofer. One that matches (exact same model) the one you have. And, depending on what you use for amplificaiton, you may need another power amp also.

Using the Groups/SubMixes/Aux Mixes on your board, seperate the kick drum and bass into two seperate outputs, going to seperate amps and then seperate subs.

Doing this should keep the same thump you have for the kick (if it doesnt clean it up), add more bass to your house mix, and allow you to turn down on stage.

Another good idea that was proposed on here was to put your full sound through the whole range of speakers on the FOH. IE, take frequencies from X (being your chosen crossover freq) down to the subs, and the rest of your bass mix up to the regular speakers. This should help project your mids (and the harmonics that help your bass get heard as well as felt) way accross the crowd.

When this is said and done, find another bass player, and have him play with your rig and your drummer while you listen. Then be happy.

 

[pickles]

Like an SVT they are sealed.

Well that explains a lot ... you'll always get less output and less low end from a sealed cab. How many times have you seen a band use 2-4 SVTs? I've seen it many times.

 

[Juniorkimbrough]

I'd say get your PA - and your PA skills - together. Using gain stucture correctly and cab placement are two areas that you have to understand to do well. What points to my opinion? Well, good subs don't fart out if used and placed right, and can make a lot of SPL. Is that sub actually the correct driver in the cab it was intended for with porting tuned for it? A lot of people just blow up a driver and assume they can replace it with whatever has the same diameter, that's why I ask.

The PA is definitely the place to look if you don't want ungodly stage volume anyway.

+1

Something is not right on the PA if the sub is farting out.

 

[Thakid2u]

Well I see alot that is good and bad. The most neg thing I saw was Bills statement of The Poor paying gigs have crap for PA or dont supply it and the high end paying ones have great. So pick one and move on. If you pick the low end ones, you will never be better than a low rep cover band. Unless you spend more money to get your own pa. I TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH THAT.

In regards to my first post...well I see were morebass is coming from. It's not his PA, he doesnt have the extra money to buying stuff for someone that could leave next week. Yea, buying something that will add to the PA and can be used in his rig if needed, ideally, yea that's a great Idea. He sounds like he has enough gear already. So why spend the extra money. Also, take in account that some people here at a different frequency. You all know about this, you know you can everything except the frequency that your wife is talking!!!!!!

What size bass does the drummer have? If he is triggering it, what kind of trigger is it? It sounds like that could be the start of the problem. Is it a power shell design or is it enclosed? 2 heads or 1 head? Try stuffing a blanket or pillow in there and miking it with a sm57, or something similar. You dont need to spend billions of dollars to mike drums. I get the best sound recording and live with the above setup on both my kits.

It should make you feel better morebass that others have a problem there too.
It seems some of the forums are getting crazy with HIGH END GEAR. It's nice to have but most cant afford it. Im lucky to have a wife that supports all the crap I have around here, but some only make $9-15 an hour, and have kids and a wife that doesnt understand that you need to spend x amount on gear. It's like people are getting to the point of, if you dont have this, you cant sound good, or you wont make it.

I say to this....Get a washtub, broom handle and string and GOTO TOWN.

 

[CrackBass]

you have to have a good sounding pa or you won't sound good. you could stack up 810's all over the stage and the band won't sound any better. unless you (or a soundman) has control over the front of house the mix will never be optimal. (if you do get enough sound to fill a big room off the stage then good luck with the vocals. it is very hard to sing when you can't hear what you are singing.) you are a member of the band, why not buy equipment for the band? buy some subs instead of more bass cabs.

why do a lot of players in a band expect one person to provide a full pa for the rest of the band to use? i see so many bands where players expect one guy to bring the pa and sometimes they don't even help him haul it to the gig or help him set it up. they also expect him to fix it if it breaks, but at the end of the night they have their hand out and want their "equal" share of the pay because suddenly the band is now an equal partnership. (then they take their money and go home while the unlucky sucker tears down by himself) screw that!

get the pa up to speed or you will never have good sound. mike everything and turn down on stage.

 

[mobax]

you have to have a good sounding pa or you won't sound good. you could stack up 810's all over the stage and the band won't sound any better. unless you (or a soundman) has control over the front of house the mix will never be optimal. (if you do get enough sound to fill a big room off the stage then good luck with the vocals. it is very hard to sing when you can't hear what you are singing.) you are a member of the band, why not buy equipment for the band? buy some subs instead of more bass cabs.

why do a lot of players in a band expect one person to provide a full pa for the rest of the band to use? i see so many bands where players expect one guy to bring the pa and sometimes they don't even help him haul it to the gig or help him set it up. they also expect him to fix it if it breaks, but at the end of the night they have their hand out and want their "equal" share of the pay because suddenly the band is now an equal partnership. (then they take their money and go home while the unlucky sucker tears down by himself) screw that!

get the pa up to speed or you will never have good sound. mike everything and turn down on stage.

Very true. When I joined my group, I contributed to the PA. When a member left, we bought him out. If members consider themselves to be equal partners, they need to make an equal investment.

 

[The 0x]

Am I the only one who thinks bands sound better when they're running partially on stage volume? I personally can't stand when i've got bass and guitar in the monitors, as well as drums and vocals. I want the bass & guitar blasting from behind me, and the vocals from ahead of me. I guess I also have a trust issue with soundmen, as the only one who's ever made us sound good let us crank up, and didn't mic our rigs, and everybody complimented us. Only vocals, kick, and a bit of overhead was through the PA. Sounded awesome.

 

[pickles]

Am I the only one who thinks bands sound better when they're running partially on stage volume?

You're not alone by any stretch. Hearing the stage sound is what rock music is all about. I do like it when the band is well under the volume ceiling of the room though ... so everyone can hear the live sound but its not out-of-control, then you use the PA mostly for vocals, maybe low levels of instruments to help even things out a bit. You're really not trying to put on a CD screening party, you're trying to put on a rock show, right?

I have this rule about micing drums live -- I don't allow it unless the room is HUGE.

 

[chadds]

Yes I love the sound of stage amps if the place isn't huge. Sometimes even the kick coming out of the mains is obnoxious as it's separate from the rest of the drum sound.
A band needs to have a balanced sound that they can reproduce anywhere. They should sound like themselves at any volume then a PA does the rest. I don't like bass in monitors either. Unless it's some hi-end pro PA it generally sounds like poo and not as good as your rig.
+1 to being able to converse on stage and be loud out front.
Volume doesn't always portray angst or emotion.
I heard an opening act for Cold Blood. They had a very harsh trebly tone through modest gear. 2 guitars, bass, drums with vocals. People retreated to the back to get away.
Cold Blood comes on with Hammond B3 with two leslies, bass, guitar, 2 horns, and female vocals. Present, no harshness, just pleasing. It did not seem loud at all.

 

[mobax]

You're not alone by any stretch. Hearing the stage sound is what rock music is all about. I do like it when the band is well under the volume ceiling of the room though ... so everyone can hear the live sound but its not out-of-control, then you use the PA mostly for vocals, maybe low levels of instruments to help even things out a bit. You're really not trying to put on a CD screening party, you're trying to put on a rock show, right?

I have this rule about micing drums live -- I don't allow it unless the room is HUGE.

That's a great rule as long as the band isn't burying the drummer.