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need more than 8x10 - what next?
- Thread starter morebass!
- Start date
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
- Sep 15, 2004
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- Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
I mic everything in everyroom, with the exception of the bass in small rooms. Why? The bass is the only instrument that's fairly non-directional, so one source can fill the entire room. The rest of the instruments, including the drums, are very directional, so you simply cannot get a balanced sound throughout the room without having them all in the PA. It's not about being loud, it's about sounding good. And caring that you do.I have this rule about micing drums live -- I don't allow it unless the room is HUGE.
So the consensus is that there's no consensus
and that's kind of what I expected. Right now the two options I'm weighing are:
1) Put bass through the PA. Buy a compressor for the kick and bass. Buy a JBL M18 sub to match our other one. Keep my GK rig and turn it down.
2) Buy a Mesa 2x15 as an addition to my bass rig (either one or two 4x10s as needed). Maybe get a compressor for the band (for kick drum) as a Christmas present.
I have a power amp that could be used to power either the sub or the Mesa. The prices of the Mesa and JBL are about the same ($600-$700). Logic says get the sub and emotion says get the Mesa
The sub would be nice because it would fit under the main and take less space and weighs less (70 pounds vs. 120). The Mesa additon would be nice because I would have more cabinet options for various venues. Still very much on the fence.
and that's kind of what I expected. Right now the two options I'm weighing are:1) Put bass through the PA. Buy a compressor for the kick and bass. Buy a JBL M18 sub to match our other one. Keep my GK rig and turn it down.
2) Buy a Mesa 2x15 as an addition to my bass rig (either one or two 4x10s as needed). Maybe get a compressor for the band (for kick drum) as a Christmas present.
I have a power amp that could be used to power either the sub or the Mesa. The prices of the Mesa and JBL are about the same ($600-$700). Logic says get the sub and emotion says get the Mesa
The sub would be nice because it would fit under the main and take less space and weighs less (70 pounds vs. 120). The Mesa additon would be nice because I would have more cabinet options for various venues. Still very much on the fence.
Which pieces on a kit are more directional than the mids and highs off a bass amp?
I personally like the sound of a raw live kit, I think it sounds right without PA support, and I've never noticed a wide variation in the sound when moving around, unless the room is large or weird. In order for that PA signal to be useful, it has to be louder than the drums themselves, and given the volume of most drummers, that is an unacceptable listening environment unless the venue is large, or outdoors.
I hate walking into a bar or small club and hearing a PA blasting louder than a live kit, and I'm pretty sure most everyone else feels the same.
I personally like the sound of a raw live kit, I think it sounds right without PA support, and I've never noticed a wide variation in the sound when moving around, unless the room is large or weird. In order for that PA signal to be useful, it has to be louder than the drums themselves, and given the volume of most drummers, that is an unacceptable listening environment unless the venue is large, or outdoors.
I hate walking into a bar or small club and hearing a PA blasting louder than a live kit, and I'm pretty sure most everyone else feels the same.
With most drummers I've played with, in the small to medium clubs I've typically played, the kick is the only drum that needs volume. Without some help, the kick usually sounds pretty lean. Our drummer likes to use triggers on the snare but we have discouraged that.
there is an 8*12", made by house of speakers, germany.
but in the end, you are doing something wrong.
but in the end, you are doing something wrong.
give me a break, kim gordon from sonic youth uses 2 810's, last time I saw them was at at bonnaroo none the less. it's definitely the PA and sound tech.
the first option of upgrading your PA is my personal preference over upgrading your bass rig, as it'll improve the entire band's sound. you should also be able to sell off or just stop using one of the 4x10"s after that as well.
if there is any chance in you selling the JBl sub and power amps, i've personally been using after ton's of research and opinions from pro-audio forums Yorkville LS800P subs which are around the $1100 mark (it is powered). They are the best value subs under $1.5k. They hit very very hard and sound excellent. 2 would rock the house even for heavy-hitting low r&b dub sounds, I use one in a very high-ceilinged auditorium big enough to fit 400+ and the single sub can easily get overpowering. They come with a 2 yr unconditional warranty on the driver, so feel free to crank it up!
and i'm def not biased against JBL's stuff, since if you had a budget i'd highly recommend JBL SRX 715's for mains.
if there is any chance in you selling the JBl sub and power amps, i've personally been using after ton's of research and opinions from pro-audio forums Yorkville LS800P subs which are around the $1100 mark (it is powered). They are the best value subs under $1.5k. They hit very very hard and sound excellent. 2 would rock the house even for heavy-hitting low r&b dub sounds, I use one in a very high-ceilinged auditorium big enough to fit 400+ and the single sub can easily get overpowering. They come with a 2 yr unconditional warranty on the driver, so feel free to crank it up!
and i'm def not biased against JBL's stuff, since if you had a budget i'd highly recommend JBL SRX 715's for mains.
thejohnkim - Thanks for the recommendation. Someone else recommended getting another JBL to match our existing sub. I'm guessing that it makes sense acoustically. It's a JBL MRX418S or JBL MRX518S (can't remember which). It sounds great for bass when we play cd's between sets. I already have a Crest v900 (1100 watts at 4 ohms) so getting another JBL seems easiest. They cost around $600.
if you have a good pa them the whole band will sound better. i also mike everything all the time. like bill said it's not always about volume but sound dispersion and the overall mix (not to mention bass response i.e. a kick drum that makes people want to dance). we still have plenty of stage volume but its all for us. the audience won't hear anything but maby a hint of it. in a big room i'll put anybody's bass rig againt a good pa and the pa will win every time. you may sound like god onstage but i garantee the pa will put a better sound out front where it counts.
Crackbass - Yeah. Even our relatively small PA has 2 15s and an 18 (soon to be 2 18s) and triple the wattage of my bass rig. I really don't want anymore stage volume and if I lessen mine maybe the guitarist will turn down a bit and the drummer will let up a little and we'll all be better off.
a lot has to do with the sound space you and the guitarist are occupying, frequency wise.
Have you ever heard a band called starfish? they were on trance synd. (beadhead & trail of the dead)
they were the loudest band I have ever heard, out of listening to 1000's of bands while I worked at a major midwest club over 8 yrs. still, the bass player used a single 810 and a svt cl. and the guitarist played a 60's twin rev. it's all about knowing your gear. not just adding more speakers
what about jesus lizard, or harvey milk, or 16, flowers in the attic, heads will roll........on and on guess what? they all play through a SINGLE 810.
Have you ever heard a band called starfish? they were on trance synd. (beadhead & trail of the dead)
they were the loudest band I have ever heard, out of listening to 1000's of bands while I worked at a major midwest club over 8 yrs. still, the bass player used a single 810 and a svt cl. and the guitarist played a 60's twin rev. it's all about knowing your gear. not just adding more speakers
what about jesus lizard, or harvey milk, or 16, flowers in the attic, heads will roll........on and on guess what? they all play through a SINGLE 810.
actually forget everything, sell the junk you're playing through and go AMPEG dude! forget it, keep doing what you're doing.....keep adding debbie gibson speakers and car radio amps
jshellac - I've never heard of any of the bands you list but I'm sure their ampegs cut through very well. I know mine did when I had one many years ago. As a 40-something part-time musician I don't really want to deal with the weight of a CL and 8x10. I'd rather haul three smaller cabinets if necessary than one 8x10.
And although it cost a lot less I don't consider my GK rig to be second rate to ampeg, just different strokes for different folks. The GK is more versatile and it's nice to have a tweeter sometimes
And although it cost a lot less I don't consider my GK rig to be second rate to ampeg, just different strokes for different folks. The GK is more versatile and it's nice to have a tweeter sometimes
If the kick is triggered it is very likely the sample is already compressed - you probably don't need it for just that purpose. But, a compressor is an integral part of any PA and is useful on a lot of sound sources, bass and vocals especially.
Update - I bought, tried and returned a dbx 166xl. After twiddling knobs for a couple sets I hit the "bypass" switch on the dbx. The kick sounded deeper and better than with any of the settings. The dbx didn't do much for the bass either. My Trace Eliot dual compressor sounds much better. So it looks like I'll be getting a subwoofer. I think I'll incorporate it into the PA rather than runnin it independently for bass. Then I'll start running bass into the PA and get the benefit of the whole system. The drummer will also get the benefit of more bass! I'll post again when I've tried this.
- Dec 18, 2000
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- greenboy designs: fEARful, bassic, dually, crazy88 etc
Sounds like you never arrived at a proper group of settings (no that's not one of my fave compressors but it does a good job) - particularly I'd be looking at makeup gain so that you haven't actually lost ground.
That's definitely needed. As it stands now, your PA has been comparatively underendowed in the lows.
I bought a JBL M418S 1x18 subwoofer to match the other one in our PA and we used the pair for the first time last night. Not an ideal setting, in fact the place is an acoustic nightmare (about 30x100 with 9 ft ceilings with the band set up at one end pointing down the "tunnel"). There was no floorspace on my side for the sub so it went on top of the (covered) pooltable. It was noticably quieter than the other one due to the lack of coupling with the floor and the fact that my Crest seems to require more input signal than the Nady that powers the other side. The clipping lights lighted up only about halfway on the Crest. So I tried running the signal through my Yamaha PB-1 before the Crest. I was able to get a stronger signal that way but the volume was still not what the one on the floor was producing. Anyway, my bass tone was greatly improved! Very much deeper and more full. 
The bad news is that I wasn't able to decrease stage volume a lot. The weird acoustics made bass loud on stage so the guitarist turned up louder. I do think I could have gotten along with only one cabinet at this place. I'd have to angle it up of put it on a stand or something though. I'm 6'3" and was standing less than 3' from the amp most of the night so I'm thinking a stand or table is in order.
Another wrinkle, I've been getting enormous feedback in my vocal mic. I believed that it was from the high stage volume but last night it was worse than ever. In frustration I handed the mic to a friend to do a backing part for me offstage. He wandered around the whole stage and dancefloor while holding it and couldn't find a spot where it wouldn't feedback. And I thought that the vibrations were coming up through the stand and causing the feedback. So now I know it's probably the mic itself as none of the other 2 mics have this problem.
Anyway, the music scence is kind of, well let's say provincial, here in cheeseland, so I apologize for boring those of you in more musically sophisticated areas where venues provide PAs etc. Thanks to those of you who've helped me so far in my quest.
To other bassists that are limping along without PA support I heartily recommend putting your money towards subwoofers rather than more stage cabinets.
The bad news is that I wasn't able to decrease stage volume a lot. The weird acoustics made bass loud on stage so the guitarist turned up louder. I do think I could have gotten along with only one cabinet at this place. I'd have to angle it up of put it on a stand or something though. I'm 6'3" and was standing less than 3' from the amp most of the night so I'm thinking a stand or table is in order.
Another wrinkle, I've been getting enormous feedback in my vocal mic. I believed that it was from the high stage volume but last night it was worse than ever. In frustration I handed the mic to a friend to do a backing part for me offstage. He wandered around the whole stage and dancefloor while holding it and couldn't find a spot where it wouldn't feedback. And I thought that the vibrations were coming up through the stand and causing the feedback. So now I know it's probably the mic itself as none of the other 2 mics have this problem.
Anyway, the music scence is kind of, well let's say provincial, here in cheeseland, so I apologize for boring those of you in more musically sophisticated areas where venues provide PAs etc. Thanks to those of you who've helped me so far in my quest.
To other bassists that are limping along without PA support I heartily recommend putting your money towards subwoofers rather than more stage cabinets.
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
- Sep 15, 2004
- 16,860
- 278
- 76
- Disclosures
- Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
If I read you correctly this means you had the subs on both sides of the stage. That's how most bands do it, and it should almost never be done that way. Read this to find out why:
http://billfitzmaurice.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=398
It's good that you're upgrading your PA, but that's only half the job, you also have to learn how to use it. For instance, I can't think of any reason why the subs would be driven with different amps. Also, the problems you're having with mic feedback most likely could be fixed if you knew how. You should consider buying a sound reinforcement manual.
