Need opinions and guidance building a space elevator.

[Marlat]

Opinions here on the direct validity aside, I think the financial situation itself paints a picture of the project.

To be attempting such a project, particularly with the credentials being floated about by the company owner, it surprises me that they were trying to gain some finances through the kickstarter website. While it may seem odd, that manner of generating funds for a scientific project strikes me as it being either a scam or it being so outlandish that they couldn't recieve conventional fundings (ie experts in the field saw their plan as unfeasible).

Not even on the ethics front, the manner of promotion and fund generation, to me, strikes questions into the viability of the project. Throw in the questionable legal history with the company, and it looks even less positive.

Here's an interesting quote from the CEO from when Liftport went broke in 2007:

Laine is not proud of losing what he said was a multimillion-dollar building due to the missed payment - but he insisted that LiftPort would hang on even if he ends up living in his mom's garage. The LiftPort blog is still cooking, and Laine is still soliciting e-mail feedback on his ups and downs.

"It's a body blow to me as a human being," Laine said of his latest reversal. "But this isn't an accident. I've been in foreclosure seven times in five years. It's not clumsy, it's by design. I made a very conscious decision: Did I want to build an elevator in space, or did I want to own an office building? So I siphoned out the equity to build this thing. ... I successfully gambled six out of seven times, and I got really, really close the seventh time."

Source: http://cosmiclog.nbcnews.com/_news/2007/04/19/4351310-will-liftport-rise-again?lite

Thats probably indicative of why its been hard for him to get funding. If you are the kind of person who would forgo your obligations to your creditors in favour of your project at all else, would you really want to fund / finance this kind of person?

Edit: Another article concerning his funding predicament in 2007: Invalid Link Removed

It will be interesting to see if the money get used as stated on the Kickstarter and whether the thousands of backers actually receive the items promised to them.

 

[DwaynieAD]

Here's an interesting quote from the CEO from when Liftport went broke in 2007:



Source: http://cosmiclog.nbcnews.com/_news/2007/04/19/4351310-will-liftport-rise-again?lite

Thats probably indicative of why its been hard for him to get funding. If you are the kind of person who would forgo your obligations to your creditors in favour of your project at all else, would you really want to fund / finance this kind of person?

It will be interesting to see if the money get used as stated on the Kickstarter and whether the thousands of backers actually receive the items promised to them.

there is precedence for suing people who run kickstarter campaigns for not delivering on the level rewards or not completing the project the kickstarter is for. it's considered breach of contract.

 

[mcglyph]

Here's an interesting quote from the CEO from when Liftport went broke in 2007:



Source: http://cosmiclog.nbcnews.com/_news/2007/04/19/4351310-will-liftport-rise-again?lite

Thats probably indicative of why its been hard for him to get funding. If you are the kind of person who would forgo your obligations to your creditors in favour of your project at all else, would you really want to fund / finance this kind of person?

It will be interesting to see if the money get used as stated on the Kickstarter and whether the thousands of backers actually receive the items promised to them.

Once again you pretend the world is full of unblemished white hats except for the one at which you are screaming. There are countless successful people who have made conscious decisions to push their financial envelope and failed, with an ending they had to arise from. Donald Trump whether his case is exact or not, comes to mind. Do I think Michael Laine is a black hat? NO! I and his rapidly growing number of supporters do not. Stop with the diatribe. Judging from the number of supporters the campaign (and website) has garnered, it is reasonable to assume many people who read the article you quote, not looking to see the negative, instead saw a man who has continued to do what it takes to keep the vision alive.

 

[mcglyph]

there is precedence for suing people who run kickstarter campaigns for not delivering on the level rewards or not completing the project the kickstarter is for. it's considered breach of contract.

I have, on various levels, supported six campaigns this year,
with great results. There is a thread where I talk about meeting Adam Small and hanging with him for three hours at his house, for a 100 pledge to his MymusicMasterclass.com website launch. Which is up by the way.
Pretty sweet. He totally floored me, what a great experience. We just hung out talking bass, recording, whatever. This experience led me to supporting Michael Laine, and also a really interesting project called MakeyMakey.

 

[Marlat]

Once again you pretend the world is full of unblemished white hats except for the one at which you are screaming.

No, I knowthat Michael Laine has a blemished record. I am saying NOTHING about the world at all. Stop raising staw man arguments, you're being ridiculous.

There are countless successful people who have made conscious decisions to push their financial envelope and failed, with an ending they had to arise from. Donald Trump whether his case is exact or not, comes to mind. Do I think Michael Laine is a black hat? NO! I and his rapidly growing number of supporters do not.

...and Mr Laine may well go on to build a massively successful space business. Unfortunately none of his doners will receive a penny because rather than invest in Mr Laine's proposals, they funded it in the most uncommercial way possible.

Stop with the diatribe.

Why? Does it make you uncomfortable to have facts about this matter pointed out. What have I posted that is untrue or not verified by something in the public domain?

Judging from the number of supporters the campaign (and website) has garnered, it is reasonable to assume many people who read the article you quote, not looking to see the negative, instead saw a man who has continued to do what it takes to keep the vision alive.

Or they could have been taken in by his words without doing proper due dilligence on where they are putting their money. There is no reason to assume one over the other. Lots of people fall for scams all the time. How do you think Mr Madoff got so much money?

 

[mcglyph]

No, I knowthat Michael Laine has a blemished record. I am saying NOTHING about the world at all. Stop raising staw man arguments, you're being ridiculous.



...and Mr Laine may well go on to build a massively successful space business. Unfortunately none of his doners will receive a penny because rather than invest in Mr Laine's proposals, they funded it in the most uncommercial way possible.



Why? Does it make you uncomfortable to have facts about this matter pointed out. What have I posted that is untrue or not verified by something in the public domain?



Or they could have been taken in by his words without doing proper due dilligence on where they are putting their money. There is no reason to assume one over the other. Lots of people fall for scams all the time. How do you think Mr Madoff got so much money?

The reason why I'm raising, "staw man" arguments is because you are pleading a case, that all of us Michael Laine supporters, are being deceived, and these statements you bring are your proof. And I'm saying the statements you bring, at least to me and the growing number of supporters, don't prove anything. This is why I said what I said.
And I'm not uncomfortable, I know all this. I was one of the people who read the part about foreclosures and saw it the way I said other people could, i.e., as proof this man was driven to succeed in an amazing project.

 

[MakiSupaStar]

Once again you pretend the world is full of unblemished white hats except for the one at which you are screaming. There are countless successful people who have made conscious decisions to push their financial envelope and failed, with an ending they had to arise from. Donald Trump whether his case is exact or not, comes to mind. Do I think Michael Laine is a black hat? NO! I and his rapidly growing number of supporters do not. Stop with the diatribe. Judging from the number of supporters the campaign (and website) has garnered, it is reasonable to assume many people who read the article you quote, not looking to see the negative, instead saw a man who has continued to do what it takes to keep the vision alive.

This is ultimately a business venture. Most people need more than blind faith in someone in order to get behind an idea. Again, I get this weird religious, cult vibe out of your devotion to this guy and the idea. It's ok to dream, but it's another thing to blindly follow.

 

[mcglyph]

This is ultimately a business venture. Most people need more than blind faith in someone in order to get behind an idea. Again, I get this weird religious, cult vibe out of your devotion to this guy and the idea. It's ok to dream, but it's another thing to blindly follow.

I googled this guy, looked at what you have presented, etc, and came to a conclusion. It is a conclusion I can live with. Talking about Bernie Madoff, well clearly he succeeded in doing what he did! Do I think what Liftport is trying to do is, among other things financially risky? Clearly. Yet, I also believe if he succeeds, even a little bit, if the robot they are going to build next year does what it is supposed to do, then what an awesome time it will be. All of the doubters and naysayers, finger pointers, and scam sayers, will have been for the moment, quieted. I want to be a part, though in such a small way, of something big, earth changing, history making! This is like if the Wright brothers had knocked on your door and asked you to support their little airplane project. I would hope I'd have been able to say yes. You know?

 

[Febs]

Talking about Bernie Madoff, well clearly he succeeded in doing what he did!

If by "succeeded," you mean that he sucecssfully swindled billions of dollars out of thousands of investors before he ultimately ended up penniless and in jail, I suppose you are correct.

No need to thank me.

 

[mcglyph]

If by "succeeded," you mean that he sucecssfully swindled billions of dollars out of thousands of investors before he ultimately ended up penniless and in jail, I suppose you are correct.

No need to thank me.

And we are back from what was for just a moment something resembling discussion. Straight back to mud slinging and smug I told you so prognostication. Thanks for that Febs, you can get back to whatever your other part time avocation is. Now.

 

[Febs]

And we are back from what was for just a moment something resembling discussion.

Madoff is serving 150 years in jail. He is estimated to have caused $18 billion in losses. He destroyed countless lives and businesses, including charities. One of his sons ended up hanging himself. Do you really contend that by making a favorable comparison between Michael Laine and Bernie Madoff, you were engaging in "something resembling discussion"?

I would be happy to have "something resembling discussion" regarding this topic, but you seem to be utterly incapable of doing that. But if you're serious, then why don't you go back and answer the questions that I posed to you in 391? And answer them without resorting to sarcasm, condescion or melodrama. Do that, and maybe I'll reconsider whether you are actually capable of "something resembling discussion."

 

[mcglyph]

Madoff is serving 150 years in jail. He is estimated to have caused $18 billion in losses. He destroyed countless lives and businesses, including charities. One of his sons ended up hanging himself. Do you really contend that by making a favorable comparison between Michael Laine and Bernie Madoff, you were engaging in "something resembling discussion"?

I would be happy to have "something resembling discussion" regarding this topic, but you seem to be utterly incapable of doing that. But if you're serious, then why don't you go back and answer the questions that I posed to you in 391? And answer them without resorting to sarcasm, condescion or melodrama. Do that, and maybe I'll reconsider whether you are actually capable of "something resembling discussion."

Hmm reading that, clearly you could think I was saying something positive about Madoff, only if you didn't believe every other thing I have posted on this thread. No one in their right mind believes Madoff didn't deserve to die the day they found out about him. NO one. They should have covered him with meat goo, put him on a island of crocodiles and left. Or worse.

 

[Marlat]

I googled this guy, looked at what you have presented, etc, and came to a conclusion. It is a conclusion I can live with. Talking about Bernie Madoff, well clearly he succeeded in doing what he did! Do I think what Liftport is trying to do is, among other things financially risky? Clearly. Yet, I also believe if he succeeds, even a little bit, if the robot they are going to build next year does what it is supposed to do, then what an awesome time it will be. All of the doubters and naysayers, finger pointers, and scam sayers, will have been for the moment, quieted. I want to be a part, though in such a small way, of something big, earth changing, history making! This is like if the Wright brothers had knocked on your door and asked you to support their little airplane project. I would hope I'd have been able to say yes. You know?

If you want to be part of it, why not ask if you can purcahse stock in the company rather than donate via kickstarter? Seems like a much more sensible way to provide financing and is less open to abuse or the risks of the naysayers being right.

 

[MatticusMania]

No one in their right mind believes Madoff didn't deserve to die the day they found out about him. NO one. They should have covered him with meat goo, put him on a island of crocodiles and left. Or worse.

Perhaps Im not in my right mind, but I dont think he deserves to die. What, he just made a little mistake... Im sure he's sorry.

 

[MakiSupaStar]

I googled this guy, looked at what you have presented, etc, and came to a conclusion. It is a conclusion I can live with. Talking about Bernie Madoff, well clearly he succeeded in doing what he did! Do I think what Liftport is trying to do is, among other things financially risky? Clearly. Yet, I also believe if he succeeds, even a little bit, if the robot they are going to build next year does what it is supposed to do, then what an awesome time it will be. All of the doubters and naysayers, finger pointers, and scam sayers, will have been for the moment, quieted. I want to be a part, though in such a small way, of something big, earth changing, history making! This is like if the Wright brothers had knocked on your door and asked you to support their little airplane project. I would hope I'd have been able to say yes. You know?

Fair enough. I hope you understand those of us who don't want to participate then. It's not necessarily that we're 'nay-sayers', it's that we don't trust the stability of the operation behind it and we question the integrity of the person leading the operation.

 

[mcglyph]

If you want to be part of it, why not ask if you can purcahse stock in the company rather than donate via kickstarter? Seems like a much more sensible way to provide financing and is less open to abuse or the risks of the naysayers being right.

To me, Kickstarter represents more than a bunch of people needing money. It is, a shining beacon of the capability of one person's ability added to another, equaling something amazing. It is population human, willfully supporting, by word of mouth, etc, avocations, attempts, and projects at which conventional financial minds often scoff.

 

[MatticusMania]

To me, Kickstarter represents more than a bunch of people needing money. It is, a shining beacon of the capability of one person's ability added to another, equaling something amazing. It is population human, willfully supporting, by word of mouth, etc, avocations, attempts, and projects at which conventional financial avenues often scoff.

So, too, said Amanda F****** Palmer.

That turned out well.

 

[mcglyph]

Fair enough. I hope you understand those of us who don't want to participate then. It's not necessarily that we're 'nay-sayers', it's that we don't trust the stability of the operation behind it and we question the integrity of the person leading the operation.

I completely understand. Completely. Everyone draws that particular line wherever they see fit, no worries.

 

[mcglyph]

Perhaps Im not in my right mind, but I dont think he deserves to die. What, he just made a little mistake... Im sure he's sorry.

I think the scale of his crime really can't be understood. Like trying to conceive what 1 Trillion dollars looks like. Or how many stars there are in this one galaxy. He did so much harm to so many people, his case is one indicator of a justice system in this country which needs some adjustment. I favor the death penalty in more cases, with swifter execution, and more often. I'm not sure whether it would be better, sure would be different. Might be better...I think this step and having more trained common people licensed to carry guns, could really do some good.

 

[mcglyph]

Very interesting. According to the consent order, Laine collected $117,542 from investors between June 2003 and March 2006.

The Consent Order also notes that, "As early as 2004 the Liftport website contained a section ... which stated, 'Money: At present, Liftport, Inc. is in the early start-up stages, and like any start-up, has strong financial needs in order to achieve our goal of building the Space Elevator."

According to mcglyph:



According to the Consent Order, the Liftport website projected in 2004 that Liftport would develop and build an operation space elevator by 2018. mcglyph, why did the team "kinda shrink" in 2004, at the same time Laine was using a projected operation date of 2018 to solicit over $100,000 money from investors? Given that the website was indicating that the company was a start-up at that time, but projecting a 2018 operation date, should it not have been growing, rather than shrinking?

Here's another interesting fact from the Consent Order: "The offering materials Liftport provided to potential investors in connection with the offering did not include financial statements, a detailed use of proceeds, projected costs to develop and build the space elevator, general risk factors related to the space technology, and specific risk factors related to space elevator production." This is exactly the same type of information that I searched for, but found missing, at the liftport.com website.

Ok first off, I'm not Michael Laine! I'm a dude who is reading the internet just like you! Now, if the dates I gave coincide (or don't)with anything it's not because I have intimate knowledge of them. You got those types of questions, you ask someone else! As previously stated I'm not some duly appointed representative for Liftport, sent to infiltrate of all sites, Talkbass!

I told you the website is still being put together. Again, not my responsibility, as in fact I have NO official responsibility. None.

Here is what I know, right now there are 64 pages of members on Liftport.com. 64. All of this information you are bringing up is easily procured, thus, either there are very many, extremely smart, educated blind fools, or no one really believes Michael Laine is the man your digging might indicate. Yes, he could be Madoff with a space hat, more than likely not. I hope we don't see anymore of those. What a bad, bad man.