That was the first outing with any Genz gear. The second one was when he was playing. Granted, we could hardly hear each other, and he wound up hanging up on me mid song. But it was still pretty funny.
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neoX212 vs dual neoX112's
- Thread starter Fretlessboy
- Start date
to get my sound with 2 neo212T's w/GBE750. Now last gig I used em at, DUH, I forgot to switch the powerflex to 2 ohms. I was getting alot of clipping of O/L & master clip, well they were lighting up at almost every note I played and I've not clipped this amp before. The cabs were sounding muddy, fuzzy, buzzy, Im hoping it was the fact that the poweflex switch was in the wrong position. But Ive also played the cabs single with the 750 and they sounded good. At one gig I played both 212 cabs, and yes switch was correct then, I was quite loud but the lows were getting muddy then too. Im wondering if the 750 into 2-212's they'd be getting 375 watts each is not enough to push these 600 watt cabs?
I PM'd hasbeen, Roger and I told him that I thought one cab was alot more distorted than the other, he said to let him know and they would send out a speaker if need be. I called local store, auth GB dealer, and they said bring it in and they'd check it out, well I'll have to do that next week, got tied up to go this week. I bought the first cab at that store the 2nd cab came from AMS, shipped to my home. Both cabs are new the 2nd cab seems to never have sounded as nice and the 1st, so I'll go get it looked at next week.
Now to add more confusion I got a deal on a used-like new GB 410 XB-02 cab so thats coming next week. I thought I could use it alone or with a 212T on top for bigger rooms. Im feeling so far even 4 12's is not giving me the tone I want. But just wanted to jump in here in case anyone can suggest I try something. I mostly set that amp flat but I do like that Shape LF knob at 2:00, gains at 11:00, master volume at 1:00 or 2:00.
So any suggestions? Im determined to make a combo that works for me out of all this GB stuff. I really do dig it, Im thinking from all the good things I read here. Its gotta be user problems on my end. I got a gig this Sat and Im planning to use my GBE750 w/ SWR Goli III 410, like I did last month at that club until I can figure out between this amp and 2 of these 4 cabs.
Oh and, Dennis, your liking your 55-02 huh? I've got barts in mine, what elecs are in yours? "GO ROCKETS"
I PM'd hasbeen, Roger and I told him that I thought one cab was alot more distorted than the other, he said to let him know and they would send out a speaker if need be. I called local store, auth GB dealer, and they said bring it in and they'd check it out, well I'll have to do that next week, got tied up to go this week. I bought the first cab at that store the 2nd cab came from AMS, shipped to my home. Both cabs are new the 2nd cab seems to never have sounded as nice and the 1st, so I'll go get it looked at next week.
Now to add more confusion I got a deal on a used-like new GB 410 XB-02 cab so thats coming next week. I thought I could use it alone or with a 212T on top for bigger rooms. Im feeling so far even 4 12's is not giving me the tone I want. But just wanted to jump in here in case anyone can suggest I try something. I mostly set that amp flat but I do like that Shape LF knob at 2:00, gains at 11:00, master volume at 1:00 or 2:00.
So any suggestions? Im determined to make a combo that works for me out of all this GB stuff. I really do dig it, Im thinking from all the good things I read here. Its gotta be user problems on my end. I got a gig this Sat and Im planning to use my GBE750 w/ SWR Goli III 410, like I did last month at that club until I can figure out between this amp and 2 of these 4 cabs.
Oh and, Dennis, your liking your 55-02 huh? I've got barts in mine, what elecs are in yours? "GO ROCKETS"
- Nov 29, 2007
- 3,641
- 13
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist GENZ BENZ/HERCULES STANDS/XSonics
First off, did you switch the switch with the amp on or off? You need to turn it offand flip the switch and turn it back on otherwise I think it doesn't switch over right. Are both of you speaker cables good and are the cabs in phase? If they are out of phase the tendency is to crank up bass to make up for the cancellation hence possible causing speaker damage. Start at the very beginning and replug each speak and listen to them first as single cabinets then as a pair. The Uber 410 kicks butt with a noeX212, I tried it the other day.
I have Lakland pickups and preamp in my 55-02 and love them.
I have Lakland pickups and preamp in my 55-02 and love them.
to get my sound with 2 neo212T's w/GBE750. Now last gig I used em at, DUH, I forgot to switch the powerflex to 2 ohms. I was getting alot of clipping of O/L & master clip, well they were lighting up at almost every note I played and I've not clipped this amp before. The cabs were sounding muddy, fuzzy, buzzy, Im hoping it was the fact that the poweflex switch was in the wrong position. But Ive also played the cabs single with the 750 and they sounded good. At one gig I played both 212 cabs, and yes switch was correct then, I was quite loud but the lows were getting muddy then too. Im wondering if the 750 into 2-212's they'd be getting 375 watts each is not enough to push these 600 watt cabs?
I PM'd hasbeen, Roger and I told him that I thought one cab was alot more distorted than the other, he said to let him know and they would send out a speaker if need be. I called local store, auth GB dealer, and they said bring it in and they'd check it out, well I'll have to do that next week, got tied up to go this week. I bought the first cab at that store the 2nd cab came from AMS, shipped to my home. Both cabs are new the 2nd cab seems to never have sounded as nice and the 1st, so I'll go get it looked at next week.
Now to add more confusion I got a deal on a used-like new GB 410 XB-02 cab so thats coming next week. I thought I could use it alone or with a 212T on top for bigger rooms. Im feeling so far even 4 12's is not giving me the tone I want. But just wanted to jump in here in case anyone can suggest I try something. I mostly set that amp flat but I do like that Shape LF knob at 2:00, gains at 11:00, master volume at 1:00 or 2:00.
So any suggestions? Im determined to make a combo that works for me out of all this GB stuff. I really do dig it, Im thinking from all the good things I read here. Its gotta be user problems on my end. I got a gig this Sat and Im planning to use my GBE750 w/ SWR Goli III 410, like I did last month at that club until I can figure out between this amp and 2 of these 4 cabs.
Oh and, Dennis, your liking your 55-02 huh? I've got barts in mine, what elecs are in yours? "GO ROCKETS"
I finally got a chance to try my Shuttle 6.0/212T rig last night. We were all totally blown away by the power and tone. It was actually very easy to dial up a nice growly rock tone with a perfect balance of punch, thickness, snap, and clarity. And it's amazing how the amp barely got warm after three hours of almost constant use at a fairly high volume.
Thanks to all you GB cheerleaders for helping me choose GB for my new lightweight rig. It definitely works for me, sound-wise.
But...
Last night was also my first time moving the 212T cab, and I can't say I was all that impressed. My main cab is a Berg NV215 and I used fridges for years, so I'm more than familiar with the tilt-back cab design. The problem with the 212T IMO is the lack of a center handle on the top rear which enables you to pull the cab behind you with one hand while carrying the bass with the other. It's much easier to pull a tilt-back cab across uneven surfaces than to push it. Also, the top handles re great for moving the cab on and off stage, but they don't exactly make it easy to move the cab in an out of a vehicle.
Anybody else have similar issues?
Thanks to all you GB cheerleaders for helping me choose GB for my new lightweight rig. It definitely works for me, sound-wise.
But...
Last night was also my first time moving the 212T cab, and I can't say I was all that impressed. My main cab is a Berg NV215 and I used fridges for years, so I'm more than familiar with the tilt-back cab design. The problem with the 212T IMO is the lack of a center handle on the top rear which enables you to pull the cab behind you with one hand while carrying the bass with the other. It's much easier to pull a tilt-back cab across uneven surfaces than to push it. Also, the top handles re great for moving the cab on and off stage, but they don't exactly make it easy to move the cab in an out of a vehicle.
Anybody else have similar issues?
Yup. I agree. It's another factor that pushes me toward dual 112s instead of one 212.
How about those strap handles? I'm not a big fan of those either. They bring back bad '70s SVT memories. Plus they stick up, so your amp head won't sit flat. I would have preferred a flush-mounted solid handle.
I really want to like these cabs because they sound great and pair well with the Shuttle 6.0, but the portability is an issue at this point. I wonder if the 212T could easily be modified with a center-mounted handle like the Berg NV215?
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,083
- 5
- 221,190
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
ErnieD, definately check to be sure that one cable is not wired with a polarity inversion like Dennis mentioned. This will certainly cause a lack of low end that will result in the need to turn up the low eq a lot to try and make up for it.
I'm honestly not a big fan of the upper handles either, but the small size and non-awkwardness make up for them IMO...sometimes lol.
Well these 2 speakon cables seem to both be good,Ive used em with other combimations of amps/cabs recently with no issue. I was mostly using speakon, amp to 1 st cab, then 1/4" from 1st to 2nd cab, so I have tried diff cables. I did not notice the flexswitch was wrong til I got home that nite, so I did play that gig all nite with the switch in the wrong position, hope that did not mess a cab up. I tried my 750 here at home this week with 2 cabs, then thru each cab and one cab really seems to have a bit more buzz after I hit and hold a low, sustained note. But they both seem to do this, just one more than the other.
So maybe this is just indicative of the sound that comes for 12's, I dont know. Before this I was using either SWR 410/115 or Avatar B210/B212 with my GBE600, nice clean tone then. Im thinking I want to use both 212 cabs tonite to see in real life conditions what I hear tonite with the flex switch in correct position, using same 2 cabs but the room is totally different. Large but all enclosed sports bar, with carpeted stage, good acoustics. I just need to see if the other large, open room, wrong flexswitch setting, too much LF settings contributed to my bad sound last week. I will keep the mids up, lows lowered and since its a smaller room less volume overall.
If one 1 of 2 buzzes tonite, then I can just unhook that one and use only one cab. I cant imagine that I have 2 bad cabs when both were bought new. I used what I feel is the better cab this week w/GK1001RBI, 540 watts @ 4ohms, small,tight,stage in a small room, passive jazz 5er and it sounded great. So I need to see if 2-212Ts are for me. And like I said I have that XB-2 410 arriving next week. If I have 1 bad cab, I'll take it in for repairs and still have 2, 4ohm cabs for next Fridays gig back at the large open room again. Thanks all.
So maybe this is just indicative of the sound that comes for 12's, I dont know. Before this I was using either SWR 410/115 or Avatar B210/B212 with my GBE600, nice clean tone then. Im thinking I want to use both 212 cabs tonite to see in real life conditions what I hear tonite with the flex switch in correct position, using same 2 cabs but the room is totally different. Large but all enclosed sports bar, with carpeted stage, good acoustics. I just need to see if the other large, open room, wrong flexswitch setting, too much LF settings contributed to my bad sound last week. I will keep the mids up, lows lowered and since its a smaller room less volume overall.
If one 1 of 2 buzzes tonite, then I can just unhook that one and use only one cab. I cant imagine that I have 2 bad cabs when both were bought new. I used what I feel is the better cab this week w/GK1001RBI, 540 watts @ 4ohms, small,tight,stage in a small room, passive jazz 5er and it sounded great. So I need to see if 2-212Ts are for me. And like I said I have that XB-2 410 arriving next week. If I have 1 bad cab, I'll take it in for repairs and still have 2, 4ohm cabs for next Fridays gig back at the large open room again. Thanks all.
Well Im back from the gig. The GBE750 and 2 Neox212T's sounded much better tonite than last week. I had the powerflex switch at 2 ohms, cables in good order, passive jazz bass. I had to place the cabs side by side due to space constraints on stage. The rig sounded pretty awesome tonite, no fuzz, buzz or distort from cabs. I guess having that powerflex switch in wrong setting last time really did make a difference. We did get quite loud later in the nite and I kept watching the amp lites to see where I was at. The master clip did come on frequently so I kept reaching down and turning different gain/volume knobs down. At one point I think I had all gain/volume knobs at 10:00-11:00 to keep from clipping. I did use the LF shape knob but sparingly and when I did step on the foot pedal to bring it in, the knob was set flat or 1:00. I mainly kept it in mix mode or tube only.
So Im guessing 1) the powerflex switch was at issue last gig 2) I dont know if I can use 2-212T's at that big biker bar, what with thier big open garage-type doors, high unfinished ceiling and just a big room overall. So the 410 XB-2 cab should be here this week. Im gonna try a 212T/410XB-2 cab setup with the GBE750 next Friday and see how that works,as usual no PA support for me. I just feel 410's/212's will throw better than just 2-212's, but we'll see. On a good note I dont think any of my 212T cabs are damaged but I'll go to get em checked out this week just to be sure.
I had a good gig tonite, its nice when your rigs kicking butt, makes you play with more confidence. But I was constantly looking down at lites and adjusting knobs the first 2 sets, then I was in the zone and just diggin the music, nice.
So Im guessing 1) the powerflex switch was at issue last gig 2) I dont know if I can use 2-212T's at that big biker bar, what with thier big open garage-type doors, high unfinished ceiling and just a big room overall. So the 410 XB-2 cab should be here this week. Im gonna try a 212T/410XB-2 cab setup with the GBE750 next Friday and see how that works,as usual no PA support for me. I just feel 410's/212's will throw better than just 2-212's, but we'll see. On a good note I dont think any of my 212T cabs are damaged but I'll go to get em checked out this week just to be sure.
I had a good gig tonite, its nice when your rigs kicking butt, makes you play with more confidence. But I was constantly looking down at lites and adjusting knobs the first 2 sets, then I was in the zone and just diggin the music, nice.
Ernie, I don't think there is a "Flat" setting on the LF knob. If you had it at noon, then you had it boosted half-way, which is pretty significant. I find that a setting of 9 o'clock is usually plenty, maybe a tad higher if I'm outdoors. If you run it that high, it will definitely start sucking extra power from the head, and can cause more cone excursion, which could create a less tight sound.
How are you running your EQ? Try running the lows around 3 o'clock, low mids around 1, and then see if you even need the LF at all. If you do, put the LF knob at 9 o'clock. Set your input gain for a bit of flashing on your lowest hardest notes, and then set the channel volume at noon. Adjust the master to taste. If that's not loud enough with dual 212's then something is wrong somewhere I suspect.
How are you running your EQ? Try running the lows around 3 o'clock, low mids around 1, and then see if you even need the LF at all. If you do, put the LF knob at 9 o'clock. Set your input gain for a bit of flashing on your lowest hardest notes, and then set the channel volume at noon. Adjust the master to taste. If that's not loud enough with dual 212's then something is wrong somewhere I suspect.
bongomania
Commercial User
Not disputing (because I don't know better) but how did you come up with that number?
The clip light flashes at about 6db below maximum output, so I think he's trying to calculate based on that.
so Eublet, that means Im liking my LF at 1:00-2:00 huh? Well I guess one day I should actually look at my amp face and get to knowf it. But I can only really open it up at gigs to hear what I need so by then Im kinda rushed to experiment with settings, I know bad time to be doing that. I need to RTFM and sit and spend more time with this amp and not be scared of certain settings, again just going with my ears. I have been flying by seat of pants lately and going with what my ears tell which ultimately will override anything I read or learn about my rig. Old habits, hard to break. But as always thanks for any input, always appreciated. Peace.
That's true, Ernie, and if you like it that high, then far be it from me to tell you it's too much just because I would find it so. I mostly meant to suggest to you that it could be taking a lot of the headroom out of your amp. Those low frequencies take a lot more power to produce than the higher ones, and they offer much less volume for what they take in return. If you can scale that back a bit, you'll have much more available power to put into the low-mids, which is where the body of the bass guitar's voice sits. But only if you like it of course.
Definitely read the manual. Lots of good info in there.
Tell me again what kind of music you play with this setup. How many guitarists? What kind of environment? I just really can't fathom not having enough power with a 1200 and dual 212's. That really should just be painfully loud on it's own, much less with everyone else competing with it on stage.
Definitely read the manual. Lots of good info in there.
Tell me again what kind of music you play with this setup. How many guitarists? What kind of environment? I just really can't fathom not having enough power with a 1200 and dual 212's. That really should just be painfully loud on it's own, much less with everyone else competing with it on stage.
Yes, I know what your saying and I appreciate all the advice. I jotted down the EQ and other settings you suggest here on a piece of paper and will try that at next weeks gig. And after what I heard at this past Saturday nites gig, I'm alot closer to knowing where I can set this amp for a better response. I do like that LF for what it does on stage for me but I did not think of the fact that when I run it hard it could be sucking power from the head and then Im trying add more volume to that, geez, so thanks for the heads up on that feature.
In this band its TX blues-rock with 1 very loud g*tar, drums, keys/sax, 2-3 vox's. I took the time this past Sat to send the lead vox out on the floor while I set my volume/EQ, etc. He came back and said man it sounds loud out there but really nice and big. And this is with some new EQ settings that I was trying out, less LF, alot more mids than I've ever used. So cool, Im applying what I've read here and it's helping. Oh if it makes any difference I use GB750, not 1200. I think I'da torn a driver by now with that amp, good thing I dont have one. Thanks again.
It's back to the big, biker bar next Friday (Hmm,gig at a wild, biker bar on Good Friday, yep, Im going to hell alright,
) But now with the info I've gathered here, I feel better about how to set my rig for this room. Cool. 
In this band its TX blues-rock with 1 very loud g*tar, drums, keys/sax, 2-3 vox's. I took the time this past Sat to send the lead vox out on the floor while I set my volume/EQ, etc. He came back and said man it sounds loud out there but really nice and big. And this is with some new EQ settings that I was trying out, less LF, alot more mids than I've ever used. So cool, Im applying what I've read here and it's helping. Oh if it makes any difference I use GB750, not 1200. I think I'da torn a driver by now with that amp, good thing I dont have one. Thanks again.
It's back to the big, biker bar next Friday (Hmm,gig at a wild, biker bar on Good Friday, yep, Im going to hell alright,
) But now with the info I've gathered here, I feel better about how to set my rig for this room. Cool.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,083
- 5
- 221,190
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
illidian said:
Eublet said:
Almost... good logic, but not quite right.
The difference between the limiter threshold and the amp actually clipping is roughly 6dB (actually a little more) and then you have to subtract off the compliance (due to limiter slope since it's not an infinity:1 device, plus the easy transition into clipping) makes this a somewhat indeterminate function. It varies with frequency, duty cycle and power level.
Rough guess is that the light comes on you still have ~2dB of difference between maximum power and LED threshold, but there's all kinds of stuff happening in between (like all the limiting stuff) that increases appearant power, gives the growl, and especially the tube output stage like compression feel.
This is where all the important information is in the details. What makes it work so well is the same thing that makes it difficult to explain easily or simply.
Hope this helps.
Man, I just finished a long practice session A/B'ing the Neox212t against 2 x Neox112t's. I was playing through my NeoPak and playing fretted and fretless P basses. Cranked it so much that I ended up very much disturbing my wife upstairs ... sorry hon!!!!!
Anyway, What really strikes me about the 212 is the openness and clarity. imho, it's a great jazz, fusion, and funk cab. Now, you can add thickness in with eq and make it do just about anything, but that full-range clarity is what I seem to perceive as its natural tone. I do know, though, that Dennis and others have said that it blooms more in the lows and mids at high volumes.
The 2 112's are a lot thicker and more old school. Flat eq on the NeoPak sounded about like lows boosted to 2 o'clock and some mid boost (freq at 9 o'clock, boost at 2 o'clock) on the 212. Dial up some tube and hit the P bass hard, and the 2 112's just punch you in the gut. I *really* like this tone for blues. This is the rig I'm going to run for the blues band this weekend on some larger stages than I've been playing up til now. I settled on tube gain at about 11:00 o'clock and pre volume at noon, lows at 1:00, mid freq at 9:00, mid boost between 1:00 and 2:00, and highs between 9:00 and 10:00. Tweeters on both cabs were on about 25%.
I had a suspicion that the 2 112's would really shine with the NeoPak, and I was right. I'm not sure the Neo has quite enough juice to really make the 212 bloom like the 6.0 does, although I've yet to *truly* crank the NeoPak. Anyway, I do believe that the NeoPak and 2 x Neox112t's is a pretty awesome combination for the kind of thump I'm looking for.
Cheers
Anyway, What really strikes me about the 212 is the openness and clarity. imho, it's a great jazz, fusion, and funk cab. Now, you can add thickness in with eq and make it do just about anything, but that full-range clarity is what I seem to perceive as its natural tone. I do know, though, that Dennis and others have said that it blooms more in the lows and mids at high volumes.
The 2 112's are a lot thicker and more old school. Flat eq on the NeoPak sounded about like lows boosted to 2 o'clock and some mid boost (freq at 9 o'clock, boost at 2 o'clock) on the 212. Dial up some tube and hit the P bass hard, and the 2 112's just punch you in the gut. I *really* like this tone for blues. This is the rig I'm going to run for the blues band this weekend on some larger stages than I've been playing up til now. I settled on tube gain at about 11:00 o'clock and pre volume at noon, lows at 1:00, mid freq at 9:00, mid boost between 1:00 and 2:00, and highs between 9:00 and 10:00. Tweeters on both cabs were on about 25%.
I had a suspicion that the 2 112's would really shine with the NeoPak, and I was right. I'm not sure the Neo has quite enough juice to really make the 212 bloom like the 6.0 does, although I've yet to *truly* crank the NeoPak. Anyway, I do believe that the NeoPak and 2 x Neox112t's is a pretty awesome combination for the kind of thump I'm looking for.
Cheers
- Nov 29, 2007
- 3,641
- 13
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist GENZ BENZ/HERCULES STANDS/XSonics
I agree, but then I knew I would. Sometime I play with the horns. If I need highs but don't want to hear them, I shut the top on off and run the bottom. If I want to hear it I can turn either or both.
