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New Avatar Crossovers!!!

#41
Sonorous said:
So could anyone give me a picture of the old crossover? I bought my Avatar used, and the guy said the crossover had been modded, but when I looked inside I'm not sure if it was. There was only one capacitor to be found, and it was hot glued to the plate.

I suppose it could be a different capacitor, but it just looked stock for some reason.
Click to expand...
I just happen to have one.......your description sounds like the original crossover with no mods.
 
#42
Sonorous said:
So could anyone give me a picture of the old crossover? I bought my Avatar used, and the guy said the crossover had been modded, but when I looked inside I'm not sure if it was. There was only one capacitor to be found, and it was hot glued to the plate.

I suppose it could be a different capacitor, but it just looked stock for some reason.
Click to expand...

Sonorus,
Avatar used just a 4.7uf cap in the "old" control plates as shown in the photo in the above post. It was a sort of "flattened" cap. If someone replaced the cap it would likely be round.
 
#43
Mine looks mostly like that. The cap is orange though, and not yellow like in the picture.

And what is that thing on the bottom with the zip tie around it? I don't have that.

Regardless, I got the cab (4x10 Delta) for $100 so I can't complain much.

EDIT:
LoveThatBass said:
It appears that Dave's new unit is a 2nd Order Butterworth with a crossover point of 3Khz. Much better than the original 4khz point he previously used. Tackling the horns low frequency distortion problem at this frequency is no easy task.
Good luck to your endeavers Dave!
I always promote your cabs!
Gary
Click to expand...
Wouldn't that be worse? Did you accidentally switch the numbers around, or did I just misread something?
 
#46
DeadRBassistNJ said:
It sounds like you have the old single cap crossover in your cab. The 3khz crossover point is better than 4khz because it allows a smoother transition between the horn and the speakers.
Click to expand...
I understand that 3khz is better because there is less of hole in the frequencies between the drivers and the horn, but 3khz is a lower frequency than 4khz, so aren't there MORE low frequencies going to the horn now than before? I thought the horn distorting from low frequencies was the entire problem.
 
#47
Sonorous said:
I understand that 3khz is better because there is less of hole in the frequencies between the drivers and the horn, but 3khz is a lower frequency than 4khz, so aren't there MORE low frequencies going to the horn now than before? I thought the horn distorting from low frequencies was the entire problem.
Click to expand...


3Khz is better in the sense it allows more of the mid/highmid frequencies to the horn. It also shifts your turnon/turnoff point closer to the lower frequencies that disturb the horn. If the rise time is slow, as in a single cap 6 db crossover point the horn will actually begin to turn on at a much lower frequency than 3khz. With enough volume and signal at that say 2khz you can and probably will distort the horn. With a 12db setup the rise time is sharper (rises more quickly than 6db) and will not let as many of the harmful frequencies in.
This allows you to push the crossover turnon/turnoff point a little lower and get less distortion. Even with a 4th order unit you may experience some distortion operating at 3.3Khz with the bass turned up and at higher volumes but it will be much less than the 6 db unit as it has a 24db (very sharp rise time). Think of a mountain with a slow gentle slope vs. a very sharp incline of the Rocky mountain terrain. This is an analogy of the difference of a 6 db vs. 24 db slope unit (1st order vs. 4th order).
 
#49
After playing my Avatar B210 Neo cabinet for about a month I decided to change the crossover. My cabinet came with the new crossover board in it. The board has a second order low pass filter passing only lows to the ten inch speakers and a second order high pass filter passing highes to the tweeter. The L-pad in mine is a 200W rating which is higher than what I have heard others report. Additionally there is a resistor network in front of the L-pad that further reduces the level going into the tweeter.

I was leary of the low pass filter sitting between my amp and the speakers. So I implemented a 4th order high pass set at 3.3 kHz just as discussed earlier in this thread by Gary, and I ran the full range signal to the two 10 inch speakers. The result is a clearer sound IMO. With the L-pad adjustment at 50%, I had a very modern snap on two month old DA XL strings. Definitely a better tweeter sound than the stock crossover. Additionally I believe the cabinet sounded better with the tweeter rolled all the way off then it did before. I think the low pass filter muddied up the sound in the original configuration. I am not sure why a bass player would want to filter the power going to a pair of 10 inch speakers. You are getting phase effects long before the attenuation of the filter kicks in. As always YMMV.

Dave
 
#50
The LP filter on the woofers is going to affect their tone. What works best is a matter of preference, but technically the speaker system will operate better if the range in which the driver outputs overlap is limited. However, when it comes to instrument speakers technically correct doesn't always sound better.

There is also the matter of phase. When using a 2nd order HP/LP crossover each output is 90 degrees out of phase with respect to the input signal. To account for this the tweeter must be wired in reverse polarity; if not the woofer and tweeter outputs will cancel each other out in the area of the crossover frequency and there will be a response hole. Not having seen one of these I have no idea whether they are wired correctly or not. Someone should take a look see to be sure they are correctly wired.
 
#51
billfitzmaurice said:
The LP filter on the woofers is going to affect their tone. What works best is a matter of preference, but technically the speaker system will operate better if the range in which the driver outputs overlap is limited. However, when it comes to instrument speakers technically correct doesn't always sound better.

There is also the matter of phase. When using a 2nd order HP/LP crossover each output is 90 degrees out of phase with respect to the input signal. To account for this the tweeter must be wired in reverse polarity; if not the woofer and tweeter outputs will cancel each other out in the area of the crossover frequency and there will be a response hole. Not having seen one of these I have no idea whether they are wired correctly or not. Someone should take a look see to be sure they are correctly wired.
Click to expand...

Or it could just be that speaker design theory is slanted towards your PA / H-Fi cabinet more so that you bass cabinet? Like is said in a previous post in this thread "In theory, these cabs should sound more "traditional" as a result. The new cabs should also sound better than the old when playing a CD through them, ........."

IMO people like me who are fans of 10's like to hear the mid and upper mid bite that you don't get from 12's or 15's. If you filter them out, you lose what could possibly be the most attractive part of using 10's.
 
#52
Or it could just be that speaker design theory is slanted towards your PA / H-Fi cabinet
Click to expand...

It's more that the musical instrument genre has always pretty much ignored audio theory and approached speaker design from a 'stick as many speakers as you can into a box' standpoint. The resulting very much non-hi-fi sound resulting has become accepted as the norm. Then when you expose someone to something that's technically 'better' they won't necessarily think it sounds better, because it's so different from what they're used to. But when it comes to music 'better' is always a subjective pronouncement, as it should be with any art form.
 
#53
billfitzmaurice said:
.

There is also the matter of phase. When using a 2nd order HP/LP crossover each output is 90 degrees out of phase with respect to the input signal. To account for this the tweeter must be wired in reverse polarity; if not the woofer and tweeter outputs will cancel each other out in the area of the crossover frequency and there will be a response hole.
Click to expand...

I have the control plate off mine. Looking at the back of the speakers and the tweeter it is not obvious what is "plus"and what is "minus" on the speakers other than the color of wire that Avatar used when slipping onto the connectors. Is there an easy way to tell which is plus and which is minus on a tweeter and speaker. I will switch the polarity of the tweeter tommorrow and see if I can hear a difference.

Dave
 
#54
The usual method of marking terminals is either with a + and -somewhere on or near the terminal, or with paint or some other method of coloring. Red for positive and black for negative is the standard, but on occasion you see only one terminal colored, and then that is the positive lug.

Telling the difference by ear isn't easy unless you have a pink noise source, or three people- one to play, one to reverse the tweeter connections, and one to stand a few feet back and listen.
 
#55
I put a set of TI Jazz Flats on my Jazz Bass and found, unlike with the R/W's they can distort the horn even with the 4th Order "Crossover" (high pass filter for the horn). I purchased
An 811647 Peerless Tweeter everyone has mentioned and with this crossover it works extremely well. ABSOLUTELY no hiss, hum, and haven't got it to distort yet. I went back to my Elixer Nanowebs R/W's to see how they sound. AWESOMELY smooth with no hint of harshness.
Here is where I got the Peerless for $22.45
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I cut the front mounting section off the horn using a Hacksaw then some minor filiing on the hole to get the magnet of the peerless to go through I mounted it to the flat plate using RTV and screws. Looks like it was manufactured that way.
I can make a photo of it if anyone needs one.

[email protected]
 
#57
I believe that the Peerless has a lower sensitivity than the Foster horn, and that's probably the reason why no hiss, as it simply isn't reproducing the amp's natural background noise as loud as the Foster does. It amounts to the same thing as turning down the LPad, but since most guys tend not to run their tweets full anyway it's not a shortcoming. As far as the quailty of the Peerless is concerned the company has a well deserved reputation for top notch products.
 
#58
Bill, I can hear the hiss on the Foster horn with it at 1/3 power and my ear close to cab. I have to use the 10K EQ set to minimum to get rid of it.
With the Peerless, I can turn the 10K EQ on my Equalizer to max and there is no hiss.
Yes, it is less output and you may be correct but the sound is much better. Why have a horn you have to turn way down to get the sound you want?

Basic83, email me for the photos.
Gary

[email protected]
 
#59
I can hear the hiss on the Foster horn with it at 1/3 power and my ear close to cab.
Click to expand...

I have no doubt about what you're hearing, just keep in mind that the source of the hiss is the amp, not the tweeter, the tweeter just reproduces the signal sent to it. On the other hand if it seems to be a 10kHz artifact it could be the Foster has a response spike there. I agree about not having to turn it down, at least not beyond what you can do from the control panel of your amp.
 

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