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New Carol Kaye documentary being released

#21
OldDog52 said:
Certainly don't want to offend anyone with a sentence or two recapping all that old info.

Oops, might be too late...
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Well, it can and has become a very volatile discussion. There's enough long-term acrimony expressed over the years that it's more prudent to do a search and read the old threads rather than rehash the accusations, the loose logic, etc. that always seems to come up. Also do some search on non TB sites- hers, and Bassland's are two good places to see things. Bottom line is that it goes beyond fuzzy memories into threats of legal action against TB, accusations of various social/political motivations, and descends pretty rapidly into personal attacks against various people who deserve more respect.

Those comments above apply to BOTH sides of the divisive issues in my opinion. But given the very nasty turn Carol Kaye threads tend to take, again it's better to look them up than ask someone to give a brief objective recount of them...

John
 
#22
JTE said:
Well, it can and has become a very volatile discussion. There's enough long-term acrimony expressed over the years that it's more prudent to do a search and read the old threads rather than rehash the accusations, the loose logic, etc. that always seems to come up. Also do some search on non TB sites- hers, and Bassland's are two good places to see things. Bottom line is that it goes beyond fuzzy memories into threats of legal action against TB, accusations of various social/political motivations, and descends pretty rapidly into personal attacks against various people who deserve more respect.

Those comments above apply to BOTH sides of the divisive issues in my opinion. But given the very nasty turn Carol Kaye threads tend to take, again it's better to look them up than ask someone to give a brief objective recount of them...

John
Click to expand...

Had no idea about that. That's pretty crazy. Guess it's a little late for me to delete my earlier posts, wouldn't have delved into it at all had I known it went beyond the normal message board flame wars. :)
 
#23
I wouldn't agree that the documentary has to get into the debate.

There are no rules on this. The documentary Could just celebrate her talents and undisputed contributions, instead of getting into all the crap. I for one hope they don't go near the crap.
 
#24
SBassman said:
I wouldn't agree that the documentary has to get into the debate.

There are no rules on this. The documentary Could just celebrate her talents and undisputed contributions, instead of getting into all the crap. I for one hope they don't go near the crap.
Click to expand...

With documentaries, there generally are rules as to what makes a decent one, and that would be showing a microcosm and the larger macrocosm that the subject fits into. Since she seems to be a more than willing participant, I doubt they would want to offend her, but there's an old expression, "you made your bed, now lie in it." One thing I wished Standing in the Shadows had done is take a more direct swipe at Gordy and Motown for screwing over the musicians that made them millionaires. Documentaries aren't supposed to pull punches, otherwise, it's a fluff piece like hagiography. The indirect way they gave Gordy and Motown their punches was somewhat effective, because you're left wondering how musicians responsible for some of the most popular and biggest selling music of all time can never have made much money off their work, as opposed to being rock stars who spent their money on trifles and drugs. Maybe it's just me, but I like to know as much of the story as I can, and if the actual people are around, I'd like to hear their take on that history as well as if there's evidence that questions it. Probably the historian in me... :hmm:
 
#25
Carol Kaye IS a terrific musician. That's what makes all this contriversy so sad. I*f it was just her "fuzzy" and inaccurate memory, I could probably overlook things and chalk it up to a fantastic musician who is getting up in years and due to the tremendous workload she did accrue confused her a bit...but her steadfast claims of performing on recordings that history and those other musicians who were there dispute her claims makes one wonder...but what REALLY ticks me off are the cheap shots she has taken over the years in interviews totally disrespecting not only the memory of the great James Jamerson, but also her relative dismissal of the great work of her Wrecking Crew contemporary Joe Osborne...whose brilliant discography speaks far more for itself than any tarnishment Ms Kaye could place upon it. She has badmouthed two legendary musicians, and the only explanation I could give is ego and insecurity. Once again...all that said, she was indeed a fantastic musician.
 
#26
AlvarHanso said:
With documentaries, there generally are rules as to what makes a decent one, and that would be showing a microcosm and the larger macrocosm that the subject fits into. Since she seems to be a more than willing participant, I doubt they would want to offend her, but there's an old expression, "you made your bed, now lie in it." One thing I wished Standing in the Shadows had done is take a more direct swipe at Gordy and Motown for screwing over the musicians that made them millionaires. Documentaries aren't supposed to pull punches, otherwise, it's a fluff piece like hagiography. The indirect way they gave Gordy and Motown their punches was somewhat effective, because you're left wondering how musicians responsible for some of the most popular and biggest selling music of all time can never have made much money off their work, as opposed to being rock stars who spent their money on trifles and drugs. Maybe it's just me, but I like to know as much of the story as I can, and if the actual people are around, I'd like to hear their take on that history as well as if there's evidence that questions it. Probably the historian in me... :hmm:
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I don't think the SITSOM needed to swipe at anyone. Motown eventually gave those musicians good incomes...better than virtually any of the Detroit musicians in those days were earning. Jamerson was pulling down a thousand dollars a week from Motown, plus his outside gig income...really good money in those days. Earl VanDyke was pulling down over 100 Grand a year from his Motown and outside work...GREAT money back then. Joe Messina was able to retire to his businesses from the money he made at Motown...far from the five bucks a track and a bowl of soup those guys worked for during Motowns infancy. It is a shame that the musicians didn't get album credits until Marvin Gayes What's Going On project...but musician credits just were not commonplace in the industry back then and Motowns prime source of record revenue was singles...not albums in the 60's. The Funk Brothers...perhaps the greatest rhythm ensemble of all time...were better off to a man, than had they never met Berry Gordy Jr...and the surviving members would all tell you that.
 
#27
They should have gotten royalties, that's my point. If The Temptations get royalties off of singing words written for them to a fantastic track played for them, why not give the actual musicians more than a wage? Berry Gordy is a multimillionaire, and maybe producers do earn more because of their investment, but it also seems like a lot of that money he made, he made off the backs of people who contributed a hell of a lot more than what they were compensated for. Musician credits may not have been commonplace before 1971, but I know for a fact that Duane Allman was credited on Wilson Pickett's Hey Jude album two years before What's Going On, and he was the only musician credited, but then it was also his first session. I know this isn't an ideal world and that the recording industry isn't set up to give royalties to studio musicians, but Joe Hunter shouldn't have had to be playing for tips in the lobby of a hotel in his 70s. And the Funk Brothers were more than just studio musicians, they built the label that made its owners filthy rich. But that's a topic for discussion elsewhere... :)
 
#28
JTE said:
Well, it can and has become a very volatile discussion. There's enough long-term acrimony expressed over the years that it's more prudent to do a search and read the old threads rather than rehash the accusations, the loose logic, etc. that always seems to come up. Also do some search on non TB sites- hers, and Bassland's are two good places to see things. Bottom line is that it goes beyond fuzzy memories into threats of legal action against TB, accusations of various social/political motivations, and descends pretty rapidly into personal attacks against various people who deserve more respect.

Those comments above apply to BOTH sides of the divisive issues in my opinion. But given the very nasty turn Carol Kaye threads tend to take, again it's better to look them up than ask someone to give a brief objective recount of them...

John
Click to expand...

Had no idea it went beyond remembering who played what... Sorry if I touched a raw nerve. :hiding:
 
#32
I have tremendous respect for Carol Kaye as a teacher and player. The columns she wrote for Guitar Player Magazine in the '70s and early '80s (along with Jeff Berlin's columns in International Musician And Recording World before his GP series) had a profound impact on my learning to really play music with the bass and being able to fit into a lot of different kinds of bands.

I wouldn't expect objective historical analysis however. To clarify to people who aren't aware of the issues- There's a lot of disagreement about who played on what sessions and whether a particular session became the one that we all call "the record". Bob Babbitt tells the story of him and Jamerson hearing a song on a jukebox and both of them recalled that they'd played it. Could be they both recorded tracks for it, could be they did so many session for the same producers that they honestly don't recall what they played on.

The thing that lifts Kaye's discussion above this sort of "fuzzy memory" is that for certain classic recordings, she has pointedly claimed credit (often with some outside backing) for which others positively assert that it could NOT be Kaye. And it goes beyond simple poor memory IN MY OPINION because of Carol's antagonistic approach at times.

And unfortunately that DOES affect her legacy as the creator and player of some of the most iconic pop bass lines, and her positive contribution to teaching and legitimatizing the electric bass.

John
 
#33
I've always considered Carol Kaye to be the female Anthony Jackson.

Enormous talent coupled with an enormous ego. You take the good with the bad with both of them, and you can choose to dislike them as persons but there's no disputing their respective abilities or roles in advancing the instrument.
 
#35
I would definitely check her documentary out, even though I disagree with a lot of her statements of "facts". She was a important step in the evolution of our chosen instrument. The Wrecking Crew documentary is a great place to check out some cool Carol stories until her documentary does comes out.
 
#36
Carol, is a monster with a legacy history. Of REAL INTEREST to me is, what made her such a monster? By deduction, prior to being a bassist she was a jazz guitarist. She understood chords and their relationships.
 

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