*New Extension Cab*, What do You Guys Think??

[jungleheat]

Maybe I'd buy into it if two things happened:

1. Someone could come up with a good reason for mixing full range bass cabs other than "15"s go lower and 10"s go higher," which is entirely based on looks.

2. I ever heard a mixed cab rig that sounded as good as a matched cab rig.

Yeah, I'm sure everyone who uses mixed cab rigs will say, "But you never heard MY mixed cab rig!" Don't care...I've heard plenty enough mixed cab rigs to know that I don't like them and I don't think they work nearly as well as matched cab rigs.

With one exception...if you use separate amps for each cab, you can dial complimentary tones into each separate rig, like a clean/dirty or what I call the poor man's biamp. But since I only bring one rig to every gig, I see no good reason to mix cabs when matching cabs that you like are a sure thing.

A good enough reason is that it's very possible that 2 different cabs will complement each other by having strengths where the other has weaknesses and vice versa. And a lot of 15s do go lower than a lot of 10s and vice versa (10s going higher than 15s). But go ahead, market your 5" sub and see how it does.

Just because YOU haven't heard a mixed setup that you liked, doesn't really mean all that much. I wouldn't exactly call your tastes typical or varied from what I've seen of them. Traditional Fender bass into Ampeg tube amp seems to be your primary goal, and the potential benefits of a mixed setup don't come into play very much in that situation.

Like in the Ashdown popularity thread, you conflate YOUR preference for the "truth" which is anything but universal.

And with the "poor man's biamping" (which is actually more expensive because you need 2 separate heads and 2 cabs), what you fail to take into consideration is, again, sometimes 2 cabs will just naturally complement each other, and you don't really need to do much if any tweaking.

Think of it this way, do people have basses with 2 different pickups that they play mixed together? It's the EXACT SAME THING. The Carvin bass I've been borrowing has the MM style bridge HB and a Jazz in the neck (plus a piezo bridge PU). I almost always play with the blend of the 2 mags dead center, because it just has the fattest, warmest tone that way, but without being too boomy or anything like that. Each pickup tends to accentuate a different part of the mids, that alone can be less than ideal, but together they sound killer.

 

[agedhorse]

Let me say that generally I prefer the (often but not always) greater predictability of pairing up 2 identical cabinets, but here's an example that I see work quite well more often than not and sometimes with outstanding results.

Take a 15" driver with a heavier moving parts, longer excursion, higher compliance, strong motor type driver, put it into a reasonably large box that may be 6 -8 cubic ft and adjust the tuning so that the -3dB point is somewhere around 35Hz. The nature of this driver is that is almost certain to have a falling frequency response, maybe down 3dB at 1Khz. The Definimax 4015 fits this profile more or less. The low end may have a nice solid round tone and feel to it but frankly by itself or even with w/ tweeter it's going to be a pretty unuseable speaker because there will be a great deficiency between 1KHz and about 3KHz (the point that the 15 rolls off and the tweeter can support without failing and/or sounding horrible for bass guitar).

This cabinet might sound really good paired in the same passband with perhaps a 210 that has very nice midrange characteristics but because of the properties that make it so good for the midragne voicing also make it unsuitable for getting real low end out of. The result that I would expect as an engineer is fairly solid reinforcement from maybe 80Hz - 1KHz with a mild and somewhat shelving rolloff above 1KHz and below 80Hz. In fact, you might get the best of a 210 but with the low end support and some low mid bump of the 15. The low end below 80Hz might be WAY beyond what you could get out of any 210 , especially at higher levels.

You could also biamp this rig, but it may very well sound better allowing the natural voicings of the drivers to interact. This is what makes MI speaker design as much art as science. You must understand the science to appreciate the potential for finding and developing the art. This is not pro audio, and what's good for pro audio does not always apply to MI audio. The guitar speaker is the easiest example to understand in this way, we often design in what would be considered "defects" in the pro audio or ideal world to get what then becomes a more desireable in the guitar world. If you can't accept this basic concept, your success in the MI field will be very limited.

... and yes, we test all of our speaker cabinets in combinations to be sure that they perform as expected. It they do not, we look into what is happening and why and adjust where possible to make them as compatible as possible because we know that they will be used this way by many customers.

 

[Whiskeyzipper]

Agedhorse, Thanks for the info. Very, very helpful.

 

[JimmyM]

Jungleheat, my truth IS universal...in my house However, you did make one good point...it would likely be more expensive to use two amps to biamp. I call it the poor man's biamp because it doesn't use a crossover.

Andy, that would be a good example of how it can work well. But it would take either careful designing or pot luck to get the two cabs that work well for that scenario. That's excellent that you design your cabs to sound good mixed, though. I'm sure some other companies do, too, and that's a good thing. I don't think anyone on here has ever said it can't work...just that the outcome's unpredictable when you slap cabs together. If they did say it, they got a little overzealous. But I'll always be one who matches cabs. Even before I knew what little I know, I never liked mixing.

 

[GrowlerBox]

Must be a slow day on TB-Amps. I can understand this debate happening once again where the OP's question begs it, but that didn't seem to be the case here.

While I would certainly generally be counted (if anyone's counting) among the "usual suspects" who would recommend matching cabinets when one is purchasing from scratch and sound unheard, as it were, the OP's situation seems slightly different.

I'm curious as to what he or she felt the 115/410 combination already owned and played was missing, and whether the bi-amping capabilities of that particular head have been sufficiently explored and exploited before a potentially heavy loss is taken on one cab and limited resources expended on another. It seemed from the opening post that he felt duped by the marketers rather than having a particular complaint about the rig. I'm assuming in reality it's a little of each.

Despite jungleheat's typically inflammatory tone, he doesn't really seem to disagree with the majority of audio engineers (including BFM) who routinely post on this topic -- mixed full-range rigs can work very well if your speakers happen to be complementary, and the only way to find out is to try them together. If you have to spend money and take a loss to perform the experiment, then matched cabinets are the far safer option. Why is this controversial?

 

[will33]

Must be a slow day on TB-Amps. I can understand this debate happening once again where the OP's question begs it, but that didn't seem to be the case here.

While I would certainly generally be counted (if anyone's counting) among the "usual suspects" who would recommend matching cabinets when one is purchasing from scratch and sound unheard, as it were, the OP's situation seems slightly different.

I'm curious as to what he or she felt the 115/410 combination already owned and played was missing, and whether the bi-amping capabilities of that particular head have been sufficiently explored and exploited before a potentially heavy loss is taken on one cab and limited resources expended on another. It seemed from the opening post that he felt duped by the marketers rather than having a particular complaint about the rig. I'm assuming in reality it's a little of each.

Despite jungleheat's typically inflammatory tone, he doesn't really seem to disagree with the majority of audio engineers (including BFM) who routinely post on this topic -- mixed full-range rigs can work very well if your speakers happen to be complementary, and the only way to find out is to try them together. If you have to spend money and take a loss to perform the experiment, then matched cabinets are the far safer option. Why is this controversial?

It shouldn't be. Agedhorses above example above is totally valid, especially the guitar driver example where our musical ear trumps any technical perfection....and our ears are the final judge in every case....and should be. That example is however a bit "toward the edges" of what you commonly see everyday. Typical 115 and 210 bass cabs have been filtered down to the point there isn't much difference between most manufacturers. To the point anybody's 210 won't differ from anybody elses 210 by for than 1/2 a cubic foot, usually less. 15's as well won't see more than a cubic foot from the biggest to the smallest....so there really is no commonly available huge 15 providing subwoofer lows to mate with a small, extra punchy 210 to carry the mid/high content that 15 can't.....they're all basically different flavors of "full range" bass cabs. Pick your flavor. Not trying to be snarky here...just stating what is.

 

[will33]

A note before the rest of tbe country wakes up tomorrow and turns this into an entirely different arguement....yeah, there are some disagreements/differences here but you know what the Genz guys are doing?.... being out here publicly, conversing, interacting, being helpful without having gotten so much as a dime from at least some of us. When's the last time a bergantino or a nordschow did that?.......never. They rely on "boutique brand" recognition and fanboys to do their bidding....all hat and no cattle. Those guys wouldn't be seen in public with the same people who are providing them with the success they enjoy. Kudo's to Genz, they're getting a lot of attention for good reason.

 

[GrowlerBox]

A note before the rest of tbe country wakes up tomorrow and turns this into an entirely different arguement....yeah, there are some disagreements/differences here but you know what the Genz guys are doing?.... being out here publicly, conversing, interacting, being helpful without having gotten so much as a dime from at least some of us. When's the last time a bergantino or a nordschow did that?.......never. They rely on "boutique brand" recognition and fanboys to do their bidding....all hat and no cattle. Those guys wouldn't be seen in public with the same people who are providing them with the success they enjoy. Kudo's to Genz, they're getting a lot of attention for good reason.

Yes -- always appreciate agedhorse's input (and hasbeen's, although haven't seen him around for a while).

 

[Woodsbass]

Must be a slow day on TB-Amps. I can understand this debate happening once again where the OP's question begs it, but that didn't seem to be the case here.

While I would certainly generally be counted (if anyone's counting) among the "usual suspects" who would recommend matching cabinets when one is purchasing from scratch and sound unheard, as it were, the OP's situation seems slightly different.

I'm curious as to what he or she felt the 115/410 combination already owned and played was missing, and whether the bi-amping capabilities of that particular head have been sufficiently explored and exploited before a potentially heavy loss is taken on one cab and limited resources expended on another. It seemed from the opening post that he felt duped by the marketers rather than having a particular complaint about the rig. I'm assuming in reality it's a little of each.

Despite jungleheat's typically inflammatory tone, he doesn't really seem to disagree with the majority of audio engineers (including BFM) who routinely post on this topic -- mixed full-range rigs can work very well if your speakers happen to be complementary, and the only way to find out is to try them together. If you have to spend money and take a loss to perform the experiment, then matched cabinets are the far safer option. Why is this controversial?

To be honest, It's not "missing" anything, I just vastly prefer the sound of my 4x10 to that of my 1x15.

 

[jungleheat]

You could also biamp this rig, but it may very well sound better allowing the natural voicings of the drivers to interact. This is what makes MI speaker design as much art as science. You must understand the science to appreciate the potential for finding and developing the art. This is not pro audio, and what's good for pro audio does not always apply to MI audio. The guitar speaker is the easiest example to understand in this way, we often design in what would be considered "defects" in the pro audio or ideal world to get what then becomes a more desireable in the guitar world. If you can't accept this basic concept, your success in the MI field will be very limited.

And that's one of the key elements that often goes ignored until it gets brought up by some opposing voice (usually me).

There's this expectation that "flat is king" as it is in home audio, but when you're dealing with an electromechanical instrument especially, that just isn't usually the case.

mixed full-range rigs can work very well if your speakers happen to be complementary, and the only way to find out is to try them together. If you have to spend money and take a loss to perform the experiment, then matched cabinets are the far safer option. Why is this controversial?

More predictable, sure, "safer" I think is somewhat debateable. The "buy before you try" situations probably don't apply to everyone, for lots of people, they could easily take their bass, head, and 1 or both existing cabs to 1 or more decent music stores in their area and try out a few options before making a decision. Not to mention with a little experience and a good ear (which if you don't have a good ear it probably doesn't matter WHAT cabs you have as long as they are decent and sufficiently loud) you CAN anticipate at least roughly how 2 cabs are likely to sound together.

It shouldn't be.

It shouldn't but there's usually this "doom and damnation" kind of tone coming from some of the matching apostles that just begs to be disspelled. As if mixing is only going to work MAYBE 1% of the time, when the real number (especially judging by how many people use mixed cabs without complaint or problems) is probably closer to 50%. Just ratchet it back a bit guys, and a lot of these conversations could be avoided. I mean, you guys have a lot of folks here basically convinced they need to sell whatever cabs they have and go out and buy 2 brand new, expensive, heavy 4x10s (even a "light" 4x10 will probably weigh as much or more as a medium weight 15), which is just not true at all, and I can't in good conscience let them go away thinking that's the only option.

Agedhorses above example above is totally valid, especially the guitar driver example where our musical ear trumps any technical perfection....and our ears are the final judge in every case....and should be. That example is however a bit "toward the edges" of what you commonly see everyday. Typical 115 and 210 bass cabs have been filtered down to the point there isn't much difference between most manufacturers. To the point anybody's 210 won't differ from anybody elses 210 by for than 1/2 a cubic foot, usually less. 15's as well won't see more than a cubic foot from the biggest to the smallest....so there really is no commonly available huge 15 providing subwoofer lows to mate with a small, extra punchy 210 to carry the mid/high content that 15 can't.....they're all basically different flavors of "full range" bass cabs. Pick your flavor. Not trying to be snarky here...just stating what is.

Sometimes 2 flavors taste better together.

Also, it's funny that you say that about cab sizes, etc... being so similar, and then the other big cliche on talkbass is you cant just go "stuffing drivers" in boxes, which I find a little funny. Yes, you can narrow in on performance if you go through all the specs and match things up, etc... but at least in my experience, if you take a good speaker and put it in a decent box, the results will probably be pretty good. I'm 3 for 3 with my old Carvin cab (the BW it came with, the EV 15B II I had in it for a while, and now a JBL M151). All 3 drivers sound great in it, and really, not all that much different (although I haven't taken the time to really A/B/C them

 

[searchfunction]

To be honest, It's not "missing" anything, I just vastly prefer the sound of my 4x10 to that of my 1x15.

If cost is a big factor, just get another BR410 ($299) or 2 BR210's ($398) - they are good cabinets, but they are also sealed cabinets, very punchy but not a lot of low end. If you play a five string now or in the future, the BRX cabs are the best. I would also go with matching cabs. If you mix a BR cab with a BRX cab, you'll never hear the BR. Here's a link to the Carvin E-bay store:

http://stores.ebay.com/CARVIN-USA/Bass-Amps-/_i.html?_fsub=2&_sid=29388852&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322

 

[WormtownBass]

In all likelihood, the 4x10 reproduces lows better than the 1x15. Sending lows to it and mids/highs to 4x10 might end up in a very bad void in the lows. You shouldn't cross two full range speakers. The only thing his BX1200 buys him is the less likely chance of blowing the 1x15. Otherwise, all of the other issues with combining those cabs are still present.

If properly crossed over, you wouldn't have any void in the lows, but your overall output would be lower. I agree that it doesn't make sense to cross over full range speakers. It is a total waste of gear and still will not give you the best performance. That's why I strongly believe in 3-way systems. They are more efficient and better reproduce the sound of your bass and amp. Sending high powered, high and low frequencies to a speaker is a good way to damage it. That's why NOBODY does this in SR applications.

Victor Wooten may use a 4x10 and a 1x15 as a setup but have you ever seen him live? He only mic's the one of the 10s! Same thing for the studio. So that Victor "sound" is really not what you may think looking at his promo photo for Eden or Hartke.

 

[Selta]

Let me say that generally I prefer the (often but not always) greater predictability of pairing up 2 identical cabinets, but here's an example that I see work quite well more often than not and sometimes with outstanding results.

Take a 15" driver with a heavier moving parts, longer excursion, higher compliance, strong motor type driver, put it into a reasonably large box that may be 6 -8 cubic ft and adjust the tuning so that the -3dB point is somewhere around 35Hz. The nature of this driver is that is almost certain to have a falling frequency response, maybe down 3dB at 1Khz. The Definimax 4015 fits this profile more or less. The low end may have a nice solid round tone and feel to it but frankly by itself or even with w/ tweeter it's going to be a pretty unuseable speaker because there will be a great deficiency between 1KHz and about 3KHz (the point that the 15 rolls off and the tweeter can support without failing and/or sounding horrible for bass guitar).

This cabinet might sound really good paired in the same passband with perhaps a 210 that has very nice midrange characteristics but because of the properties that make it so good for the midragne voicing also make it unsuitable for getting real low end out of. The result that I would expect as an engineer is fairly solid reinforcement from maybe 80Hz - 1KHz with a mild and somewhat shelving rolloff above 1KHz and below 80Hz. In fact, you might get the best of a 210 but with the low end support and some low mid bump of the 15. The low end below 80Hz might be WAY beyond what you could get out of any 210 , especially at higher levels.

You could also biamp this rig, but it may very well sound better allowing the natural voicings of the drivers to interact. This is what makes MI speaker design as much art as science. You must understand the science to appreciate the potential for finding and developing the art. This is not pro audio, and what's good for pro audio does not always apply to MI audio. The guitar speaker is the easiest example to understand in this way, we often design in what would be considered "defects" in the pro audio or ideal world to get what then becomes a more desireable in the guitar world. If you can't accept this basic concept, your success in the MI field will be very limited.

... and yes, we test all of our speaker cabinets in combinations to be sure that they perform as expected. It they do not, we look into what is happening and why and adjust where possible to make them as compatible as possible because we know that they will be used this way by many customers.

Thank you for chiming in from your perspective. I want to ask a question, but don't want it viewed as a pot shot.
Do you design your 1x15s to be able to match your 4x10 in volume? If I'm aiming to push some ridiculous amount of volume from a 4x10 + 1x15 setup, the 1x15 will invariably be the weak link, and in a lot of cases will be damaged/blown long before even being heard. I'm just curious what your stance is on that.

 

[will33]

If properly crossed over, you wouldn't have any void in the lows, but your overall output would be lower. I agree that it doesn't make sense to cross over full range speakers. It is a total waste of gear and still will not give you the best performance. That's why I strongly believe in 3-way systems. They are more efficient and better reproduce the sound of your bass and amp. Sending high powered, high and low frequencies to a speaker is a good way to damage it. That's why NOBODY does this in SR applications.

Victor Wooten may use a 4x10 and a 1x15 as a setup but have you ever seen him live? He only mic's the one of the 10s! Same thing for the studio. So that Victor "sound" is really not what you may think looking at his promo photo for Eden or Hartke.

Good points all around.

@ one of jungleheat's earlier points....yes, in the case of common 210's and 410's I've pretty much quit telling folks they need to do all the measurements and reverse engineer their enclosures. There just isn't much difference in the boxes across most all manufacturers. In that case, amp power, general tone desired and budget are pretty much the deciding factors. 115 cabs still do vary by as much as 25% though with some being fairly small. In that case, it is a good idea to do the measurements as some drivers behave a lot differently in smallish boxes than others.

 

[agedhorse]

Thank you for chiming in from your perspective. I want to ask a question, but don't want it viewed as a pot shot.
Do you design your 1x15s to be able to match your 4x10 in volume? If I'm aiming to push some ridiculous amount of volume from a 4x10 + 1x15 setup, the 1x15 will invariably be the weak link, and in a lot of cases will be damaged/blown long before even being heard. I'm just curious what your stance is on that.

This is a really good question.

One thing that I always take into consideration when designing any speaker product (bass guitar or pro audio) is matching the power bandwidths across the various sections. That means that the subs, mids and highs are all adequately proportioned with respect to total or net response. That may take adjusting crossover points (in pro audio specifically), driver sensitivity and powr handling to achieve a reasonably workable balance.

One thing that we have done in the 15's, where a single 15 is expected to work with say a 210, is to be sure that the sensitivity of the 15 is reasonably close to that of the 210's. Of course, relative impedance between the two is one way to balance power (which is why I prefer a 210 to be 8 ohm for this appliccation) and help match up sensitivities. It also makes for cabinets with reasonably similar power handling capabilities. With a 410, I would probably recommend 2 x 15's to match up (we have a few folks doing this with a ShuttleMax 12.0, on channel feeding an Uber 410 and the other feeding 2 x Uber 115's) but some folks really like a single 15 under a 410 tonally and I really do not have a good argument against their liking it. In that case, the 410 will probably net out about 3 or 4dB louder but the 15 may temper the feel of the rig in a way that these players prefer.

Don't forget that it's not just sound that we are talking about, it's feel, it's playability, it's another dimension that plays into this being a creative effort and not just a data sheet excercise.

I would also like to publicly thank everybody for remaining civil in this discussion. It takes a lot of effort to move your own personal preference off to the side and look at this subject from a wider range of other players personal preferences. I am not a bass player (keys guy here) so I am aware that my personal preferences are maybe a little more flexable and understanding of variety. I have also been involved in the pro audio world, both on the regional and touring sides as a FOH engineer or system engineer for over 25 years and still work maybe 50 - 60 dates so that I can keep current and most importantly listen to (and talk with) a wide variety of bass players to see what they are trying to achieve and understand where they are coming from in the context of the pro live audio gig. There's quite a difference between designing product to be played in a living room and designing a product to be used in a large venue. Since we are not really in the cheap practice/beginner amp and home wanker market, this approach puts us more into the hands of the better and more sophisticated players who have the chops to appreciate maybe what is a more shared player experience.

I also look forward to meeting those of you who will be attending NAMM. From past years, I can say that TB has a very interesting and well educated mix of members and some outstanding players amongst the group. We do havfe to remember that many of you usual TB suspects probably represent the top 1% of the bass world, so keep that in mind when we crossover into the bass for the masses topics

Just some thoughts before I bury myself in CAD for the rest of the day

 

[tombowlus]

A note before the rest of tbe country wakes up tomorrow and turns this into an entirely different arguement....yeah, there are some disagreements/differences here but you know what the Genz guys are doing?.... being out here publicly, conversing, interacting, being helpful without having gotten so much as a dime from at least some of us. When's the last time a bergantino or a nordschow did that?.......never. They rely on "boutique brand" recognition and fanboys to do their bidding....all hat and no cattle. Those guys wouldn't be seen in public with the same people who are providing them with the success they enjoy. Kudo's to Genz, they're getting a lot of attention for good reason.

I'm not sure what you are getting at, here, but at least the way I am reading your comments, above, I don't think you are being entirely fair. Will, I tend to agree with a lot of what you say, and much of what you post here is definitely of the helpful variety, but I am a little bothered by these comments.

First off, I know a lot of manufacturer's who give excellent customer service if someone calls their shop or e-mails them, or possibly posts something on their webpage or forum (if they have one), but some of these same manufacturers don't post on TalkBass - or do so very sparingly - for fear of violating the CUP or for fear of having their words taken out of context, etc. This is a great site, and I certainly enjoy the heck out of it, but whether or not a company posts here is not the most relevant measuring stick of customer service.

Have you ever called Jim Bergantino? I know for a fact that he has spent hours talking to guys who are interested in his products, or perhaps who bought something used - both situations where he isn't "getting a dime." Dave Nordshow helped me resolve a problem with an Eden cab I owned, and this was after he sold the company. He didn't make a dime, either, but he was very helpful (and I had not met him prior to that call).

And what's with the "wouldn't be seen in public with the same people who are providing them with the success they enjoy" comment? I really don't know what you are getting at, here. Are you saying that Dave Nordshow and Jim Bergantino would not be seen in public with their players? I'm sorry, but that just strikes me as an absurd comment. I know both gentlemen and have seen them both in public not only with myself but with other players from varying walks of life. This comment just seems way out in left field...

Not to take anything away from the guys at Genz-Benz or anyone else. But I think that perhaps you are coming on a little strong - and from way out in left field - with some of your comments about Bergantino and Nordshow.

Again, perhaps I am just misreading your comments, or maybe you are being sarcastic in some fashion which I am failing to comprehend, but if you did mean the implied slams, above, then I've got to give that a big -1 IME/IMHO.

 

[BassmanPaul]

If I'm aiming to push some ridiculous amount of volume from a 4x10 + 1x15 setup, the 1x15 will invariably be the weak link, and in a lot of cases will be damaged/blown long before even being heard.

This is the big point in my mind. I care less about how the pair sound and much much more about the damage that can occur. Equipment is expensive and damage is costly to repair. If you wish to use the pairing at least stack the 15 on the top so you are more likely to hear signs of stress.

 

[will33]

I'm not sure what you are getting at, here, but at least the way I am reading your comments, above, I don't think you are being entirely fair. Will, I tend to agree with a lot of what you say, and much of what you post here is definitely of the helpful variety, but I am a little bothered by these comments.

First off, I know a lot of manufacturer's who give excellent customer service if someone calls their shop or e-mails them, or possibly posts something on their webpage or forum (if they have one), but some of these same manufacturers don't post on TalkBass - or do so very sparingly - for fear of violating the CUP or for fear of having their words taken out of context, etc. This is a great site, and I certainly enjoy the heck out of it, but whether or not a company posts here is not the most relevant measuring stick of customer service.

Have you ever called Jim Bergantino? I know for a fact that he has spent hours talking to guys who are interested in his products, or perhaps who bought something used - both situations where he isn't "getting a dime." Dave Nordshow helped me resolve a problem with an Eden cab I owned, and this was after he sold the company. He didn't make a dime, either, but he was very helpful (and I had not met him prior to that call).

And what's with the "wouldn't be seen in public with the same people who are providing them with the success they enjoy" comment? I really don't know what you are getting at, here. Are you saying that Dave Nordshow and Jim Bergantino would not be seen in public with their players? I'm sorry, but that just strikes me as an absurd comment. I know both gentlemen and have seen them both in public not only with myself but with other players from varying walks of life. This comment just seems way out in left field...

Not to take anything away from the guys at Genz-Benz or anyone else. But I think that perhaps you are coming on a little strong - and from way out in left field - with some of your comments about Bergantino and Nordshow.

Again, perhaps I am just misreading your comments, or maybe you are being sarcastic in some fashion which I am failing to comprehend, but if you did mean the implied slams, above, then I've got to give that a big -1 IME/IMHO.

Well, you're right...the one comment was over the top. Reading it back, sarcasm didn't come through and it just looks like somebody talking out of their ass, so, I apologize for that one.

Those two came to mind because I've never seen participate in any public discussion like this. I'm sure they'd be happy to talk with someone if they handed them $1500 for a speaker....they'd better.<----sarcasm.. While the stuff does sound good, I think they've built up this boutique type brand recognition that pretty much just feeds on itself, with the help of admittedly happy customers singing praises which basically amounts to a sort of free advertising.....or we'll just call it good buzz. They seem to kind of sit back and let this happen uuand keep themselves out of the public eye so to speak so as to not do anything to upset it. At least on a more person to person level like TB. These guys have built up this image of their stuff and command huge prices for it while if you really look at it, there's nothing new, revolutionary or extrordanary about it. It's the same designs as the rest of the industry and there's more than a few folks here who could poke some holes in it, or sort of take a little bloom off tbe rose so to speak. While the stuff can sound great, I don't it lives up to the hype, or the pricetag.

While being a TB member is certainly no pre-requisite for anything, there are members here from big, mainstream companies like Genz, Gallien, Peavey, Ampeg, etc. as well as smaller outfits, amp builders, cab builders, bass builders, etc. These folks for the most part are helpful, educational, even in areas that having nothing directly to do with their products. They don't violate any CUP. I don't see that from the 2 I mentioned, not to single them out specifically, they just came to mind.

My.02. I don't sell anything and really have nothing to gain or lose from sort of "putting my thoughts out there".

 

[edpal]

and then why you were all pounding the poor guy in your 4x10 and 1x15 glory.

No body seemed to notice he has a BX1200

which comes with 2 output sections, with individual volume control.........and wait for it.............

Adjustable Crossover.

So hey he can use a 4x10 and 1x15.

downside, the 15 is limited to overall output compared to a 4x10.
good thing you can adjust that with a 1200

still yes 2 matching 4x10's would be ideal for fullrange.

And yes updating to a better 4x10 (good idea) wont match his current lower cost 4x10.

So hey man not having money is understandable, upgrade what you can, and realize it might not be ideal for now. But will be more awesome when you have 2 upgraded matching cabinets

otherwise since you do have a crossover. To get the 15 up to the same level as the 4x10. all you would have to do is add another 15. So 2x15 and 1 4x10.

4x10 on the high freq crossover 2 1x15 on the low crossover.
and yes the 1200 is 2ohm stable

adjust crossover to taste, and balance with the volumes.

Carvin might not be considered amazing to some, but they are still smarter than most here.

+ LOT. I am in total agreement - everybody seems to think a good crossover(or a high-pass filter) is weird, but all sorts of other sound systems use that thinking. I have two setups where I do that(sort of 3).
First I have the EDEN E320(320 watts, 2 X 12 +horn) - rooms up to 250-300. For a bigger room, I set the Eden on my Carvin 18" powered cab. Run the pre-amp section of the Eden to the Carvin, through the high-pass, sending all above 120hz. back to the Eden. A little adjusting, all is good for up to 500-ish bodies. Beyond that: Ampeg SVT7 - pre-amp to Carvin sub, thru the high-pass (set back to 90hz.,) rest goes on to either one or two Mesa Boogie Powerhouses(1X15, 4X10,horn). Crossover on the MBs set +10 and "sheen". No phase issues. To much fright over mismatches cabs - yeah they need some help in splitting up the heavy lifting. Instead of all the matching cabs, use some electronics and match the right cabs to the right part of the sonic spectrum. My $0.02

 

[edpal]

This is the big point in my mind. I care less about how the pair sound and much much more about the damage that can occur. Equipment is expensive and damage is costly to repair. If you wish to use the pairing at least stack the 15 on the top so you are more likely to hear signs of stress.

Or get a good cross-over or high-pass filter and stop asking the LF 15 to do the job of the 10s.