*New Extension Cab*, What do You Guys Think??

[edpal]

With 6 items in his rack, I'm guessing Victor is using a crossover and letting speakers that are optimal for each sonic range do their respective work. Sure both the OPs cabs are full range, but his 1X15 cab. is rated to have a lower frequency response. And ported at floor level, where it will creep right up the listeners backside(the audience is the real focus, right?) Some of this may depend on what type of gearhead you are. Nothing wrong with a bunch of 10's or 12s, just not everybodys bag. Once you don't trust or like a piece of equipment it is hard to fall in love with it again. A fresh piece of GAS will make the OP feel better, even if it doesn't sound better.

 

[JimmyM]

With 6 items in his rack, I'm guessing Victor is using a crossover and letting speakers that are optimal for each sonic range do their respective work. Sure both the OPs cabs are full range, but his 1X15 cab. is rated to have a lower frequency response. And ported at floor level, where it will creep right up the listeners backside(the audience is the real focus, right?)

Even if port location mattered, which it doesn't, it's still on a stage that's about 3-5 ft high, and the audience hears bass through the PA coming from a DI from the head and a mic on one of the 10"s. And he runs both cabs full range, no crossover.

 

[WormtownBass]

Ah I see... so the hi tech TB engineer squad cant get the message out!!! All those poor touring bassists!!!

There are a lot of high tech people that contribute to TB--people who know just as much about acoustics as VW knows about playing bass. I would actually argue that someone with a PhD in physics or EE and is a good musician is better equipped to answer this question than someone who is just a damn good musician.

I bring back to what VW does in practice--he only mics one speaker! So when you hear him at a concert, it's only the 10!

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I don't this to get in a "p...ing" contest, but I ask people to open their minds for a bit rather than just take what some professional musicians do as practice. If you want to poo-poo this, then fine, I'm not here to start a new religion or something. But I think there are people here who are interested in technical aspects as well as musical. I used a 15 + 2x10 for years because I thought it sounded good and everyone else did it. I found that once I tried not mixing drivers, I really liked the sound. This is a very opinionated website and we can expect differences in opinion but I find it hard to listen to arguments that "this person does it so it must be right".

A couple other notes from a few posts back:

- Typically a 2x10 will give approximately the same output as a 15, just based on surface area of the driver. The amount of air that can be moved by a speaker is largely dependent on the surface area. A 1x15 gives approx. 177 in^2 and a 2x10 gives approx. 157 in^2. But this is a gross oversimplification. I have heard 1x15s that can outperform a 410 and even a 610 at high power. But, with the same manufacturer/series and same power input, 1x15 and 2x10 are usually close. The 2x10 has the disadvantage of comb filtering in the horizontal plane if you have the drivers side-by-side. This will give you drops in certain frequencies depending on where you stand to the side of the cab. This is a real effect and I ask anyone with a 2x10 or 4x10 to "use your ears" and experiment with different listening positions from side-to-side in a room.

- I've heard that some people say that 15s sound "flubby" and 10s sound "tighter". Again, I used to be one of these people! What I found in my experience, is that typically 15s can better output lower frequencies than 10s. This has more to do with box tuning and design, that's why I say typical. If you have the ability to play with a high pass filter (like in power amp DSP) you will be amazed at how much you can change your sound just varying the HPF. Another artifact you might be hearing is that 10s typically have better midrange output. If you ever get a chance to try out a 3-way cab with a 15 and a true midrange, you might find that you won't miss the sound of 10s anymore.

 

[Joe Louvar]

Must be a slow day on TB-Amps. I can understand this debate happening once again where the OP's question begs it, but that didn't seem to be the case here.

While I would certainly generally be counted (if anyone's counting) among the "usual suspects" who would recommend matching cabinets when one is purchasing from scratch and sound unheard, as it were, the OP's situation seems slightly different.

I'm curious as to what he or she felt the 115/410 combination already owned and played was missing, and whether the bi-amping capabilities of that particular head have been sufficiently explored and exploited before a potentially heavy loss is taken on one cab and limited resources expended on another. It seemed from the opening post that he felt duped by the marketers rather than having a particular complaint about the rig. I'm assuming in reality it's a little of each.

Despite jungleheat's typically inflammatory tone, he doesn't really seem to disagree with the majority of audio engineers (including BFM) who routinely post on this topic -- mixed full-range rigs can work very well if your speakers happen to be complementary, and the only way to find out is to try them together. If you have to spend money and take a loss to perform the experiment, then matched cabinets are the far safer option. Why is this controversial?

It seems like the same people post in these matched/mismatched cab threads over and over and they also seem to post almost countless times - IE, count how many times each person posted in this thread. Besides the typical tricks of derailing insults, hidding post, and etc (not so much in this particular thread- yet) the multi posting of the same people over and over again is one of the main reasons why these watts don’t matter/mismatched threads get so long.

 

[JimmyM]

Hey, anything I can do to put off leaving for my gig so freaking early...



1:30 call time...I thought this was rock and roll! BAH!

 

[Joe Louvar]

lol

 

[will33]

There are a lot of high tech people that contribute to TB--people who know just as much about acoustics as VW knows about playing bass. I would actually argue that someone with a PhD in physics or EE and is a good musician is better equipped to answer this question than someone who is just a damn good musician.

I bring back to what VW does in practice--he only mics one speaker! So when you hear him at a concert, it's only the 10!

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I don't this to get in a "p...ing" contest, but I ask people to open their minds for a bit rather than just take what some professional musicians do as practice. If you want to poo-poo this, then fine, I'm not here to start a new religion or something. But I think there are people here who are interested in technical aspects as well as musical. I used a 15 + 2x10 for years because I thought it sounded good and everyone else did it. I found that once I tried not mixing drivers, I really liked the sound. This is a very opinionated website and we can expect differences in opinion but I find it hard to listen to arguments that "this person does it so it must be right".

A couple other notes from a few posts back:

- Typically a 2x10 will give approximately the same output as a 15, just based on surface area of the driver. The amount of air that can be moved by a speaker is largely dependent on the surface area. A 1x15 gives approx. 177 in^2 and a 2x10 gives approx. 157 in^2. But this is a gross oversimplification. I have heard 1x15s that can outperform a 410 and even a 610 at high power. But, with the same manufacturer/series and same power input, 1x15 and 2x10 are usually close. The 2x10 has the disadvantage of comb filtering in the horizontal plane if you have the drivers side-by-side. This will give you drops in certain frequencies depending on where you stand to the side of the cab. This is a real effect and I ask anyone with a 2x10 or 4x10 to "use your ears" and experiment with different listening positions from side-to-side in a room.

- I've heard that some people say that 15s sound "flubby" and 10s sound "tighter". Again, I used to be one of these people! What I found in my experience, is that typically 15s can better output lower frequencies than 10s. This has more to do with box tuning and design, that's why I say typical. If you have the ability to play with a high pass filter (like in power amp DSP) you will be amazed at how much you can change your sound just varying the HPF. Another artifact you might be hearing is that 10s typically have better midrange output. If you ever get a chance to try out a 3-way cab with a 15 and a true midrange, you might find that you won't miss the sound of 10s anymore.

I ran a 15+210 stack for years and thought it sounded good...and it did. Then I went to using matching speakers and it sounded even better, clearer. Then I went to biamping using actual dedicated mid drivers, and it sounded even better. Clearer still and more representative of the instrument. Each increment sounded like you took a blanket off the previous sound....well, OK...maybe a sheet.. That doesn't equate to "modern" tone some people don't like. My default tone is still warm, fat, "vintage", not ultra clean zingy treble, etc. You can just hear that sound a lot more clearly and just plain better across the stage and over a much wider swath of my audience. The bass sounds more even across different areas of the room and doesn't have all the nulls and voids...good spots and not-so-good spots.....it sounds good everywhere.

 

[edpal]

Even if port location mattered, which it doesn't, it's still on a stage that's about 3-5 ft high, and the audience hears bass through the PA coming from a DI from the head and a mic on one of the 10"s. And he runs both cabs full range, no crossover.

Ah, but VICTOR gets to hear his 15 - across the hairs on his legs!! Sometimes when the mix gets loud, feeling your own groove through your feet and legs is all you got. I play a lot in churches (desides various R&R projects) and I like it when someone [half] complains they could feel it up through their butt. Yes you mainly hear harmonics and sub-harmonics of the lowest notes. Even better when you can accurately feel them.

So, someone has been using binoculars to scope out Victor's rack, and everything behind them too.

 

[GrowlerBox]

Ah, but VICTOR gets to hear his 15 - across the hairs on his legs!!

I don't recall ever seeing Mr VW play in shorts.

 

[edpal]

I don't recall ever seeing Mr VW play in shorts.

WHo said anything about shorts? The hairs are like feelers, they feel the pants moving. You're killing me.

Knarly clown avatar +1

 

[jungleheat]

I ran a 15+210 stack for years and thought it sounded good...and it did. Then I went to using matching speakers and it sounded even better, clearer. Then I went to biamping using actual dedicated mid drivers, and it sounded even better. Clearer still and more representative of the instrument. Each increment sounded like you took a blanket off the previous sound....well, OK...maybe a sheet.. That doesn't equate to "modern" tone some people don't like. My default tone is still warm, fat, "vintage", not ultra clean zingy treble, etc. You can just hear that sound a lot more clearly and just plain better across the stage and over a much wider swath of my audience. The bass sounds more even across different areas of the room and doesn't have all the nulls and voids...good spots and not-so-good spots.....it sounds good everywhere.

To some extent though, things like this can be similar to the people who buy a brand new Mac to replace their 5 year old PC and then are like "oh it's so much faster and better and easier!". Well, I should hope so, it's got 5 years worth of newer technology in it and probably cost 3 times as much.

My point is not all rigs are created equally in terms of the quality of the components. A mixed Trace or SWR or higher end GK rig, etc... is almost ALWAYS going to sound far superior to some low end (but "matched") behringer crap or something like that.

Usually over time, people acquire better and better gear and rarely go backwards, so almost anychange keeping that in mind will seem like an improvement. And even if someone switches out a 300w 15 for a similar quality (maybe even the same brand/series) 500w+ 4x10, how much of the "improvement" they're hearing is just due to having a bit more headroom and Fletcher-Munson things going on?

The phase response of any 2 cabinets together (whether they're identical or completely different or anywhere in between) is only one small component of everything that goes into making the final sound. Personally, I think it's a bit foolish to base your entire rig setup solely on that one thing, which in the grand scheme of things, is far overshadowed by other components, at least in my experience.

 

[fingerbun]

Maybe I'd buy into it if two things happened:

1. Someone could come up with a good reason for mixing full range bass cabs other than "15"s go lower and 10"s go higher," which is entirely based on looks.

2. I ever heard a mixed cab rig that sounded as good as a matched cab rig.

Yeah, I'm sure everyone who uses mixed cab rigs will say, "But you never heard MY mixed cab rig!" Don't care...I've heard plenty enough mixed cab rigs to know that I don't like them and I don't think they work nearly as well as matched cab rigs.

With one exception...if you use separate amps for each cab, you can dial complimentary tones into each separate rig, like a clean/dirty or what I call the poor man's biamp. But since I only bring one rig to every gig, I see no good reason to mix cabs when matching cabs that you like are a sure thing.

My reason for mixing.....and let me start by acknowledging I am not an expert at this.

A year ago I had a rig with a single 15, and wanted to add a second cab. This was before I'd learned anything much about the theory of mixing speaker cabs on Talkbass, but I'd played some mixed rigs I liked, and I bought a 210. I'd played through some Hartke stuff that I liked so I bought a Hartke 210XL online. Never again without an audition. The Hartke is a good product, but to my ear just doesn't throw as much bottom end as I want. However, I also had an old TL bin that I love the sound of, but don't particularly like the way it disperses mids and tops. Put the two together and the sum of the parts makes up for the limitations of each component alone. Particularly when I stack it so the speakers are all vertical.

Now, I do need to upgrade the rig because the TL is only 150W and hits its limit when I use a 5 string, and I will buy matched cabs. But adding that 210 to that 115 gave me a workable speaker combination on a budget, albeit that it was dumb luck, not science, that got me there. I expect the new matched rig to be better, but power handling aside the tone of the current speaker combination is workable for what I do.

Jimmy at the moment you are using an Ampeg portaflex reg. Here in Oz your setup is about $2,000, of which the speaker cabs will be about $1,200-1,300 for the pair, and those are the budget end of Ampeg. Most other options I am looking at for new speakers are more expensive. The Hartke box cost me $380. If I was on a budget, I could add another Hartke 210XL but I think I wouldn't like the sound. Or I could experiment with a suitable replacement for the TL and keep mixing.

 

[JimmyM]

fingerbun, I totally get the financial aspect of it, especially since I've been to New Zealand and have seen what folks have to pay in music stores there. And I totally get that those two cabs worked together for you, as it's similar to what Andy was talking about. That's why I tell people to rock whatever they have proudly, and commitment + skill will put them over every time regardless of what you use for a rig.

BTW, I happen to like those 210XL's Our sax player has one and it's quite a nice sounding little guy.

 

[will33]

To some extent though, things like this can be similar to the people who buy a brand new Mac to replace their 5 year old PC and then are like "oh it's so much faster and better and easier!". Well, I should hope so, it's got 5 years worth of newer technology in it and probably cost 3 times as much.

My point is not all rigs are created equally in terms of the quality of the components. A mixed Trace or SWR or higher end GK rig, etc... is almost ALWAYS going to sound far superior to some low end (but "matched") behringer crap or something like that.

Usually over time, people acquire better and better gear and rarely go backwards, so almost anychange keeping that in mind will seem like an improvement. And even if someone switches out a 300w 15 for a similar quality (maybe even the same brand/series) 500w+ 4x10, how much of the "improvement" they're hearing is just due to having a bit more headroom and Fletcher-Munson things going on?

The phase response of any 2 cabinets together (whether they're identical or completely different or anywhere in between) is only one small component of everything that goes into making the final sound. Personally, I think it's a bit foolish to base your entire rig setup solely on that one thing, which in the grand scheme of things, is far overshadowed by other components, at least in my experience.

Some good points there.

I think the biggest part of ones sound is obviously the player and how the play the instrument. The actual instrument/strings could be considered an extension of that.

Personally, I put speakers, and how they are used, a very close second to that. They're at the end of the chain and are the one piece that turns all that other stuff you're doing into sound people can hear. Couple things it did for me personally, gaining some knowledge of how and why all this stuff works is....1. Better get my sound out to more of my audience, the whole dispersion/beaming tunnel/clarity thing. And 2. Having "better" speakers and/or putting the ones I had to better use, proper alignment, etc. exposed flaws in my playing I never heard before...little details I never heard with a muddled speaker setup. It wasn't too comfortable at first...but I'm a better player now because of it.

 

[GrowlerBox]

fingerbun, I totally get the financial aspect of it, especially since I've been to New Zealand and have seen what folks have to pay in music stores there.

You know Australia's that little country just to the left of New Zealand, right?

Gear is even more expensive there than here, if you can believe it.

 

[will33]

You know Australia's that little country just to the left of New Zealand, right?

Gear is even more expensive there than here, if you can believe it.

That has to really suck. Do things at least somewhat balance out? Like, does everything cost more but you generally make more too. Like make more, spend more and end up in the same spot or you just get the shaft?

We need to start some sort of decent but affordable "avatar-esque" speaker company over there.

 

[fingerbun]

You know Australia's that little country just to the left of New Zealand, right?

We prefer to think of NZ as a state of Australia that hasn't realised it yet

 

[JimmyM]

You know Australia's that little country just to the left of New Zealand, right?

Gear is even more expensive there than here, if you can believe it.

To us ugly Americans, they might as well be the same country

 

[will33]

New Zealand has sheep, Australia has kangaroo's and AC/DC....otherwise they are the same.

 

[fingerbun]

That has to really suck. Do things at least somewhat balance out? Like, does everything cost more but you generally make more too. Like make more, spend more and end up in the same spot or you just get the shaft?

We need to start some sort of decent but affordable "avatar-esque" speaker company over there.

Swings and roundabouts. Both the US and Oz have a great standard of living. Anyone living in either country is fortunate.

We pay more for some musical gear and less for health care, for example. Kind of balances out. I saved more in my last stay in hospital (which was free) than I spent on gear this year.

There are some Australian gear companies. Rode probably the best known internationally. We have some fantastic guitar manufacturers, but I'm not aware of any Oz made high-end bass rigs.