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New: Zoom B3n Multi-Effects

You can try to eq your amp to get a similar sound than with your headphones.

It's a sound that I like in headphones, but not to hear out of a bass amp. It's sort of compressed and a bit too processed, and not quite responsive enough to varied attack and dynamic changes. It's nice in headphones so that you don't have to worry about dynamic spikes and listening fatigue, but i'd like a more raw/responsive sound straight out of my amp. I'm sort of surprised nobody else seems to have this criticism. It could be that i'm off my rocker or am overly sensitive to small differences that don't matter, or have unreasonable expectation to a budget range digital muilti effect processor. Also it could be that I just haven't figured out the setting changes necessary to get me closer to the sound that I like. I still have a fair amount of homework to do to figure out how to use every effect on there to the fullest extent. Anyways, I'm happy with it for home headphone use, so my criticisms aren't a deal breaker.
 
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It's a sound that I like in headphones, but not to hear out of a bass amp. It's sort of compressed and a bit too processed, and not quite responsive enough to varied attack and dynamic changes. It's nice in headphones so that you don't have to worry about dynamic spikes and listening fatigue, but i'd like a more raw/responsive sound straight out of my amp. I'm sort of surprised nobody else seems to have this criticism. It could be that i'm off my rocker or am overly sensitive to small differences that don't matter. Also it could be that I just haven't figured out the setting changes necessary to get me closer to the sound that I like. Anyways, I'm happy with it for home headphone use, so my criticisms aren't a deal breaker.
Sometimes it works better IMO if you dial back or not use the speaker sim on a patch that is using it. When you are using headphones the speaker sim sounds good but coming back through an amp with a real speaker cabinet can get muddy or less defined.
 
It's a sound that I like in headphones, but not to hear out of a bass amp. It's sort of compressed and a bit too processed, and not quite responsive enough to varied attack and dynamic changes. It's nice in headphones so that you don't have to worry about dynamic spikes and listening fatigue, but i'd like a more raw/responsive sound straight out of my amp. I'm sort of surprised nobody else seems to have this criticism. It could be that i'm off my rocker or am overly sensitive to small differences that don't matter, or have unreasonable expectation to a budget range digital muilti effect processor. Also it could be that I just haven't figured out the setting changes necessary to get me closer to the sound that I like. I still have a fair amount of homework to do to figure out how to use every effect on there to the fullest extent. Anyways, I'm happy with it for home headphone use, so my criticisms aren't a deal breaker.
Oh, and btw, no you're not...
tenor.gif
 
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It's a sound that I like in headphones, but not to hear out of a bass amp. It's sort of compressed and a bit too processed, and not quite responsive enough to varied attack and dynamic changes. It's nice in headphones so that you don't have to worry about dynamic spikes and listening fatigue, but i'd like a more raw/responsive sound straight out of my amp. I'm sort of surprised nobody else seems to have this criticism. It could be that i'm off my rocker or am overly sensitive to small differences that don't matter, or have unreasonable expectation to a budget range digital muilti effect processor. Also it could be that I just haven't figured out the setting changes necessary to get me closer to the sound that I like. I still have a fair amount of homework to do to figure out how to use every effect on there to the fullest extent. Anyways, I'm happy with it for home headphone use, so my criticisms aren't a deal breaker.
Responsiveness is important for me too.
Try beginning with a blank patch connected to your amp and build from there, avoid compressors and limiters. If your amp have an input gain and an output one, put the input quiet low.
Also try using preamps effects alone, like the svt or the dark glasses ones.
You may have more sensibility that way.
What amp and bass are you using?
 
So I’ve had my B3n for a while and played with it at home, but last Sunday a church gig was the first time I had used it live.

I had set up 6 different amp sim patches, in running DI to FOH and then I get feedback in my IEM. During linecheck I realised that the compressor block was doing something oodd to the sound, like almost a chorus effect so I’ve got something to learn there.

So I ended up with an SVT into a 810 patch ... sounded okayish to my ears. Which I kinda how I feel about the B3n , ok but it looses some of the dynamics and feel...

... by the second song though, I didn’t care, it sounded and felt great! I was getting a bit of that valvey bouncyness to the feel, and then when I dug in a little bit of brakeup - it sounded really nice and most of all was fun to play.

So overall - great!
 
The new GuitarLab 4.0 is out. Just downloaded it.
Thanks for the heads-up. Just installed it.

Is there updated firmware as well? Hoping they improved the pitch shifter...
I saw nothing to indicate a firmware update for any of the "n" products, but the new firmware has bug fixes and now supports the new GCe-3 desktop device. Who knows? Maybe they'll surprise us all with some new firmware, too.

Pure speculation, but let's hope that the lack of added models for the "n" series has been due to the launch of the GCE-3 and G1/B1 FOUR, and that once these new products are established in the market, new amps/cabs/fx will follow. Just hoping here....
 
Hey all, just got a B3n and have some questions about general bass signal flow. I am a guitarist and own a G5n, plus I know enough about EQ-ing instruments in a band mix.

So in guitar, the thought is that the preamp fattens up the signal, usually by hitting the headroom on input, and the cab does a big drop lower than ~100Hz and higher than ~4.5Khz. Otherwise, your guitar sound will have icepicky highs and overdrive/distortion will sound like bees in a can.

I know bass uses a completely different philosophy. The bass is boomy, its sound disperses well and a bassist usually doesn't need to be mic'd into a PA as much as a guitarist does (guitar cabs tend to beam their frequencies in a straight line, getting less clear the more off axis you go).

In the G5n, you can choose to have the mic on or off - if you have it off, it doesn't cut off the frequencies I wrote above. Rule of thumb by Zoom is if you're playing into FRFR, turn mic on; if you're playing into a guitar cab, don't (or just don't use cab sim altogether).

A guitar needs a cab. A bass does too, I think, but definitely not as much as a guitar. How do bass cabs adjust the frequency? I ask because it may not be immediately apparent to a newb with G5n why to use a cab model when the clean guitar signal he's getting sounds decent enough. It's only when he kicks on the distortion that it becomes apparent. I feel the same way with bass cabs. I know that my Little Mark head has an XLR out which, I imagine, sends a non-cab signal to the FOH, while I hear the signal it sends to my cab, but this would never work on a guitar rig.

I am wondering what the deal is with the cabs on the B3n. I see that they have two mics, a bottom, and a wet/dry parameter - what sonic purpose are these used for? I don't need a "Just use whatever sounds good" because there are certain fundamentals that apply across different rigs. A link to some sort of "all you need to know about bass signal chain and tone in one article" would be really helpful!
 
I am wondering what the deal is with the cabs on the B3n. I see that they have two mics, a bottom, and a wet/dry parameter - what sonic purpose are these used for? I don't need a "Just use whatever sounds good" because there are certain fundamentals that apply across different rigs. A link to some sort of "all you need to know about bass signal chain and tone in one article" would be really helpful!

What style of music are we talking about here, and what type of sound/tone are you looking for? That's your starting point if you'd like more pointed direction. What bass(es) are you using? Also, are you looking for live solutions, recording/studio solutions, or both? If for live use, what type of venues, size, PA/Monitoring, etc.? Will audience hear the bass mostly from the PA, or is the stage sound designed to carry the room? Will your stage rig be full range cabinets or bass guitar speakers?

You see, the problem is that there are different considerations for different styles an situations, and better solutions than others depending on what you want to accomplish. Modern Metal isn't classic R&B, and classic hard rock ain't funk. The good news is that you have a wide range of sounds within the B3n to choose from.
 
What style of music are we talking about here, and what type of sound/tone are you looking for? That's your starting point if you'd like more pointed direction. What bass(es) are you using? Also, are you looking for live solutions, recording/studio solutions, or both? If for live use, what type of venues, size, PA/Monitoring, etc.? Will audience hear the bass mostly from the PA, or is the stage sound designed to carry the room? Will your stage rig be full range cabinets or bass guitar speakers?

You see, the problem is that there are different considerations for different styles an situations, and better solutions than others depending on what you want to accomplish. Modern Metal isn't classic R&B, and classic hard rock ain't funk. The good news is that you have a wide range of sounds within the B3n to choose from.

Hey man, good questions, but I am asking about the generically accepted way to get a bass amplified in a band setting. I will try to clarify by saying what the components in a guitar rig do and hoping that you can point me to similar info for the bass.

Again, no matter who you are or what style of music you play, guitar signal flow can be typified as
Guitar -> preamp (does EQ, adds clipping/compression) -> power amp (makes it louder) -> cabinet (output of signal, as well as strong frequency tweaking to focus the tone of the guitar on its more pleasant central frequencies while doing a sharp dropoff around 4-5kHz to minimize its unpleasant highs). You can additionally add a mic to the guitar cab, usually done off-axis to further reduce sharp peaks that would grate your ears in the PA speakers.

That's traditional guitar amplification, how you get a pleasant sound to sit in with the band.

Bass is a whole other ballgame. While the cab is a gigantic part of the guitar's sound, the bass conversely seems to me like it would sound good through an FRFR cab. People send their bass to FOH through XLR from their preamps, completely bypassing any tone-shaping the cabinet does. This is unthinkable in guitar-world.

So what I am trying to understand is what a cab does for the bassist. On the B3n, you can blend the dry signal with it if you choose (for the G5n cabs, it's more of a binary decision and you'd gonly leave the cab model out of your chain if you were plugging into a real guitar cab). Whereas bassists can take it or leave it, it seems?
 
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Whereas bassists can take it or leave it, it seems?
Yeah, basically, lots of bassists want a clean sound uncolored by amp head or cabinet, DI into the board is quite common. For us, it's more "just another flavoring" than a necessity. (Though I'm sure there's a contingent who would never go DI or go without a real or simulated amp head and cab.)
 
So what I am trying to understand is what a cab does for the bassist. On the B3n, you can blend the dry signal with it if you choose (for the G5n cabs, it's more of a binary decision and you'd gonly leave the cab model out of your chain if you were plugging into a real guitar cab). Whereas bassists can take it or leave it, it seems?

[apologies, windbag post here ]

OK. I'll offer up what I can. My experiences are as a bassist and a FOH mixer at venues of all shapes and sizes. When I'm wearing my "bassist" hat on stage, I'm playing mostly well-known rock, hard rock, classic rock, some R&B, some pop and metal. I go for a tone that translates well across all of those genres, thus some of those styles have some component of drive/distortion going on - from subtle to very aggressive.

The bass cabinet IR filtering is a key element in taming the harshness/top end of the OD distortion, as well as adding the "flavor" of that particular cabinet. I'm a big fan of the SVT amp/cab for most styles, but old school classic rock sounds great through the Acoustic amp/cab, too. Since finding modelers with cabinet simulation, I've generally been using full range cabinets to amplify my bass on stage.

The blending of the full range dry tone with the cabinet sim is what retains the top end and fundamental low end components of the bass sound. To what extent tends to be subjective IMO, but also depends on whether more of the dry blend helps you with articulation, clarity and body of your tone. On stage this is important for a happy performance, no? So, for me, it doesn't take a lot of thinking to get a bass sound using the B3n. I'll have an OD (used occasionally for heavier rock/metal) in front of a compressor (mild compression, the 1176 model simulation), going to the SVT amp model (set to my taste, a little grit when I dig in, lots of upper mid-range presence, Ultra Hi & Low switch engaged), and then onto the SVT cab sim set to around 85% cab/15% dry blend. I'll ride my tone knob and pickup selection knobs to blend into the mix as desired, more or less "edge" to the sound.

Personally, I find the "pure direct" sound (into a full range speaker system) with no cabinet simulation to be almost too literal and sterile a representation of the bass for the above mentioned styles. However, that broad range, enhanced snap of the top end and heft of the low end fundamentals can be exactly what someone is looking for if you're doing a lot of funk pop/slap bass (round wound strings, of course), and modern pop music, where the style takes advantage of the broad dynamic and frequency spectrum of the bass. In this case, it's all about the instrument and the player for the bass sound. A little comp/limiter to help with the dynamic extremes may be all you need...no modeling or cab sim, just add effects as desired...BUT with all of that frequency range available, you'll need to be careful with distortion, which will tend to sound like swarming bees unless it is radically filtered with a LPF. Generally speaking, there's not much value above +/-5khz for the bass IMO. For that matter, classic rock tones (60s & 70s) may not benefit for anything much above 2.5khz, especially if you're mimicking bass tones with flat wound strings.

From a FOH sound mixer's standpoint, bass tone and dynamics are a bit different than on stage, and is IMHO the most difficult instrument to get to sound good in performance, unless you benefit by a room with great acoustics, a stage volume that is in control, a good bass sound to begin with, and quality sound reinforcement equipment. For most club rats, this lucky combination isn't usually found often, so IMO a good cabinet simulation can be the key to having a good bass sound in the PA system. With the cab sim, you're doing all of the necessary filtering of high/low frequencies for the FOH mixer from the get go. That's why I usually always revert to the SVT 8x10 for cab simulation, since it has a fairly broad frequency range that works well for the bass - not overly dark or muddy, not overly crisp unless you want it to be.

I'm sure others have varied opinions on the fundamentals of bass tones. All this JMO based on decades of experience, but YMMV. Hope this helps.
 
What jimfist says s absolutely true.
Even so, as you may know, there are a lot of different cabs used for basses, sizes goes from 8 to 18 inches and are often combined.
For you to understand what cabs do for basses, simply take any amp sim on the B3n and change cabs, combine them, ie: a 2x10 with a 1x15 , etc... play soft, play hard, play higher and lower notes for each combination. That way you will have a closer idea of what they do.
Take care to zero the amp sim eq before, as many of the B3n amp sim come eqed by default.
 
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Hey man, good questions, but I am asking about the generically accepted way to get a bass amplified in a band setting. I will try to clarify by saying what the components in a guitar rig do and hoping that you can point me to similar info for the bass.

...Bass is a whole other ballgame. While the cab is a gigantic part of the guitar's sound, the bass conversely seems to me like it would sound good through an FRFR cab. People send their bass to FOH through XLR from their preamps, completely bypassing any tone-shaping the cabinet does. This is unthinkable in guitar-world.

So what I am trying to understand is what a cab does for the bassist.
If you're dealing with your classic P or J passive electric bass platforms, the raw pickup output sounds kind of anemic when fed into a board or a recording interface. You need some tone shaping and EQ, often combined with natural amp and speaker compression, or pedals/rack gear to achieve the same thing.

So amps and cabs are still at least somewhat important for bass, even though there's more emphasis on DI signals.

When it comes to studio recordings, most are made using a straight DI signal, along a ton of eq and compression. Some people like to insert high-dollar preamps and character DI's into the initial feed, but that depends on the artist and the producer. Look up the Noble preamp, REDDI, etc., for examples.

A little fairy dust is also sprinkled in the form of overdrive, chorus, reverb, etc. on occasion, but a lot of the time, you're either listening to a clean, compressed and EQ'd DI feed, or the same feed blended in parallel with some extra drive.

There's also a lot of misinformation about what was used to create classic recordings.

I always assumed that the classic rock and R&B bass lines were recorded by hanging a mic on period bass amps. I was astonished the first time I plugged into an Ampeg B15, and didn't sound like Jamerson. Ditto when I cranked up a Marshall stack and didn't sound like Chris Squire.

My advice would be to start with three fairly simple signal chains in the Zoom:
  • An SVT and cab.
  • A compressor into one of the EQ's, followed by a reverb.
  • A compressor into the B15, no cab, followed by one of the EQ's and a reverb.
Start with the reverbs turned off.

Take your time, and simply mess around with each patch. Learn what the controls do on the various compressors. Listen to what the gain and tone controls do in each amp. On the SVT patch, listen to how you can tweak the cab by fiddling with the mic and balance settings. Listen to how you can refine the sound of an amp using EQ at the end of the signal chain. Then see what just a touch of reverb can do to change the feel of a patch.

Try to match tones you like on YouTube, or your favourite albums.

Before you know it, you'll have a better understanding of how to tweak other people's saved patches, as well as how to build your own.
 

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