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NFL Week #15

#121
I'm thinking a little more big picture here than you are, and that is not meant to be an insult.

Stafford is a good QB, but after 27 games in three years, I'm not about to place him over a guy who won a Super Bowl and a guy who won two division titles. Romo may be a weak argument for me here though since he hasn't done well in the playoffs. Eli over Stafford is a no-brainer for me.

-Mike
 
#122
MJ5150 said:
I'm thinking a little more big picture here than you are, and that is not meant to be an insult.

Stafford is a good QB, but after 27 games in three years, I'm not about to place him over a guy who won a Super Bowl and a guy who won two division titles. Romo may be a weak argument for me here though since he hasn't done well in the playoffs. Eli over Stafford is a no-brainer for me.

-Mike
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I'd put Stafford over Romo, but behind Eli at this point. I think Eli Manning may be the most underrated QB in the NFL.
 
#125
aborgman said:
I'd put Stafford over Romo, but behind Eli at this point. I think Eli Manning may be the most underrated QB in the NFL.
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I would agree with one caveat. I'm not sure Eli hasn't already reached his peak. A guy who is a bit inconsistent but has shown up in some big games. I suspect with Eli Manning what we've seen is what we're going to see (the ceiling). OTOH I suspect with Stafford we're seeing the floor. Stafford has never had the benefit of a very good running game or a quality O line. With Eli, we've seen him with those tools and he was good but no Brady, Rodgers or Rothesberger (a guy we can't forget about) when it comes to consistent excellence. I suspect Stafford has a shot at reaching that level (and no I'm not claiming he's there yet. To me the ceiling for Stafford is unlimited.


One other note going into this season I'd have put Rivers in that top class, but he has laid some real eggs this season and his int/TD levels 17-23 are unacceptable for an upper tier QB. Rivers career QB rating is 95.8, this season 89.4. Stafford with a lesser O line and zero running attack has 14 interceptions (9 with a broken finger) and 33 TD's. His rating 93.8. Stafford has pulled ahead of Rivers at this point.
 
#126
MJ5150 said:
I'm thinking a little more big picture here than you are, and that is not meant to be an insult.
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I don't think you are, I'm thinking who is the best guy playing QB right now to lead a team for the next 10 years and who is most likely to be in that elite group in the next 5 years. He is playing at a similar level to the #5-10 QBs in the league right now and only has 27 games under his belt when all the other top 10 guys have probably 50-100. There is a reason he was the obvious #1 draft pick three years ago and he is well on his way to playing up to those expectations. Watching him every week, I've seen him get better and better the more games he's played. I don't see that improvement leveling off for another year or two.

Will he continue to progress and take the next step to the elite group? Only time will tell. Either way, he is already playing in the top 25% of QBs in the league.

And I put Eli in the elite group myself, he wins games with his back up against the wall and teams are defending nothing but the pass, he can put up big points in a hurry, he doesn't really give away a lot of games with a lot of turnovers, and he did lead his team to a game winning TD drive in the SB against an undefeated Patriots team.

No offense taken, just a friendly discussion about football, it's all good.
 
#127
lol,... the "Manning ceiling" statement is so base-less!

his year to year stats show consistant progress and once again he is on track to having his best season yet. just like last years improved numbers. he had a plateau in his career, but it was still an improvement over the previous.

do some homework before trying to dis our QB!!!

i hope Stafford can trend like Manning. gl ;)
 
#129
burk48237 said:
Stafford has never had the benefit of a very good running game or a quality O line.
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I have to disagree about the O-line, at least as far as pass protection they have been in the top 1/3 to top 1/2 of the league as far as sacks allowed the last 2 years. I don't know much about how they formulate the NY Life Protection Index Link Removed but I'm sure it was compiled by a bunch of stat junkies who spent way more time worrying about how to measure how well a team protects against the pass rush that I would ever want to spend. Lions were 8th last year and 6th this year. In either case, Stafford gets better protection based on pure sack numbers or the Index than Rodgers does and he is pretty mobile where Stafford is not. I think they got a bad rep because of the catastrophic sacks that resulted in serious injuries to the QBs rather than the fact that they allow a lot of sacks or pressure.

As far as the run blocking, the line is definitely one of the worst in the league, I'd like to see them add some sweet run blocking guards into the mix for next year. And while I'm looking ahead to next year, I'm a bit excited to think that the Lions could have a healthy Best, Kevin Smith, and LeShure on the roster next season. A couple upgrades to the line to improve the run game and that could be a pretty stout running attack for a change.
 
#130
GeoffT said:
I don't think you are, I'm thinking who is the best guy playing QB right now to lead a team for the next 10 years and who is most likely to be in that elite group in the next 5 years. He is playing at a similar level to the #5-10 QBs in the league right now and only has 27 games under his belt when all the other top 10 guys have probably 50-100. There is a reason he was the obvious #1 draft pick three years ago and he is well on his way to playing up to those expectations. Watching him every week, I've seen him get better and better the more games he's played. I don't see that improvement leveling off for another year or two.

Will he continue to progress and take the next step to the elite group? Only time will tell. Either way, he is already playing in the top 25% of QBs in the league.

And I put Eli in the elite group myself, he wins games with his back up against the wall and teams are defending nothing but the pass, he can put up big points in a hurry, he doesn't really give away a lot of games with a lot of turnovers, and he did lead his team to a game winning TD drive in the SB against an undefeated Patriots team.

No offense taken, just a friendly discussion about football, it's all good.
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Yeah, it's cool bro. I'm basing my opinions on what these players have proven they can do and have done. You're speculating on what you hope your QB will do. The conversation has now shifted to who you want to build your team on for the next 10 years. I was talking about who is elite now, based on what they have been able to do.

For me, it is about wins and championships not yards and TD passes. Stafford has piled up good numbers, but no big wins or playoff appearances to show for it, so he doesn't make the top of "my" list.

If I was building an NFL team, I'd still take Brady, Rodgers, Eli, and probably even Brees over Stafford. Those guys can all win me a Super Bowl now. 27 games over three seasons is not enough to show me he can win. Remember, I like Stafford so this isn't some kind of bias towards the guy.

-Mike
 
#131
Looks like it was light's out for Big Ben ;)

I was listening to the radio after the game, and the announcer was warning about the "trap game against Seattle" coming on Saturday.

uhm... No... not a trap game, but a bona fide contest. Seattle is playing GREAT football right now. They are playing at home, which has always (since the days of the School of Hard Knox) been tough, even in the lean decades.

I don't think Harbaugh and Co are looking at this next game as an easy game, by any definition, but rather as a challenge against a worthy opponent.
 
#132
GeoffT said:
I have to disagree about the O-line, at least as far as pass protection they have been in the top 1/3 to top 1/2 of the league as far as sacks allowed the last 2 years. I don't know much about how they formulate the NY Life Protection Index Link Removed but I'm sure it was compiled by a bunch of stat junkies who spent way more time worrying about how to measure how well a team protects against the pass rush that I would ever want to spend. Lions were 8th last year and 6th this year. In either case, Stafford gets better protection based on pure sack numbers or the Index than Rodgers does and he is pretty mobile where Stafford is not. I think they got a bad rep because of the catastrophic sacks that resulted in serious injuries to the QBs rather than the fact that they allow a lot of sacks or pressure.

As far as the run blocking, the line is definitely one of the worst in the league, I'd like to see them add some sweet run blocking guards into the mix for next year. And while I'm looking ahead to next year, I'm a bit excited to think that the Lions could have a healthy Best, Kevin Smith, and LeShure on the roster next season. A couple upgrades to the line to improve the run game and that could be a pretty stout running attack for a change.
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I think that has more to do with Staffords quick release and the Lions quick passing game than the quality of the O Line.Stafford has an awful lot of 5-6 yards completions. Although I do think Jeff Backus is a bit underrated, I don't believe the Lions have had anything close to a pro bowl lineman in ten years. I do think Stafford feels the rush pretty good and has great pocket presence. I also thing Sean Hill his back up is good at this.

As far as being a fan, the fact that the Lions had no camp, and two of their top three picks hurt means next year it will be like having two drafts come in. A bit of help from free agency and they could be an elite team.
 
#133
I saw an ad in the Pittsburgh paper today......one NFL division title available, no charge. Just come get it. We got it as a gift, but no one here wants it. Stop by Heinz Field and ask for Mike T.

In between hockey intermissions, I checked out the Steeler game. You would never know that team was playing for the top seed in the AFC.

-Mike
 
#134
MJ5150 said:
I saw an ad in the Pittsburgh paper today......one NFL division title available, no charge. Just come get it. We got it as a gift, but no one here wants it. Stop by Heinz Field and ask for Mike T.

In between hockey intermissions, I checked out the Steeler game. You would never know that team was playing for the top seed in the AFC.

-Mike
Click to expand...

Yep I suspect the top three seeds in the NFC are better than #1 in the AFC at this time. The Patriots can't stop anyone. And Pittsburg and Baltimore don't seem to have their typical defensive presence along with being inconsistent offensively. Texas has had a bunch of injuries and is unproven in the playoffs. The Jets are a joke punch line, whose left Seattle?:rolleyes:
 
#135
Funky Ghost said:
I live in Sac and I know Shaub. The thing is, he's a bit like Romo except he's had a legit #1 wide out his entire career. He is inconsistent. Maybe that's why he doesn't get more press.
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That's cuz your a Tacks fan. :spit:

I get the Romo comparison, but I've never known him {Schaub} to be incosistent.

I still don't see, especially since both of them have top top wide receivers, how Stafford goes above Schaub.
 
#136
burk48237 said:
Yep I suspect the top three seeds in the NFC are better than #1 in the AFC at this time. The Patriots can't stop anyone. And Pittsburg and Baltimore don't seem to have their typical defensive presence along with being inconsistent offensively. Texas has had a bunch of injuries and is unproven in the playoffs. The Jets are a joke punch line, whose left Seattle?:rolleyes:
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Seattle is an NFC West team now, so even they can't save the AFC this season.

;)

...man, what a disgusting performance from Pittsburgh last night. Failure started at the top, why Tomlin had Big Ben on the field to start with is baffling...and leaving him in when he was clearly struggling shows either a lack of sense about what is going on, or a lack of giving a damn about winning.

And the Steelers D? They made Alex Smith look like an actual NFL QB.

Pretty sad.

:hmm:

(I'll give props to the SF defense, they're damn good...but still not THAT good...credit that more as a Steelers loss than a 49ers win, IMO.)
 
#137
basstotheface said:
That's cuz your a Tacks fan. :spit:

I get the Romo comparison, but I've never known him {Schaub} to be incosistent.

I still don't see, especially since both of them have top top wide receivers, how Stafford goes above Schaub.
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I'll agree here, Schaub is a better QB than either Romo or Stafford. Romo has flashy numbers, but he crumbles when it matters; Stafford has potential, but still needs to actually DELIVER on it.

Schaub gets overlooked pretty much, and it's a real shame he got hurt this season, because if he were healthy, I think the Texans would be almost a lock to make it to the Super Bowl. And, they'd have been competitive - the rest of the AFC, not so much (however, the "Any Given Sunday" rule applies, even in that game...).
 
#138
pacojas said:
lol,... the "Manning ceiling" statement is so base-less!

his year to year stats show consistant progress and once again he is on track to having his best season yet.
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Eh... if you do the smart thing and adjust for league variance, he's been relatively plateaued since 2008.

His 2008-2011 seasons are all relatively similar, and I would take 2009 over this year as his best season statistically.
 
#139
MJ5150 said:
If I was building an NFL team, I'd still take Brady, Rodgers, Eli, and probably even Brees over Stafford. Those guys can all win me a Super Bowl now.
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I'd have a hard time taking Brady, and possibly Brees, if building a team.

Those guys can win you a championship now - with a good team around them... but if you're building a team, they won't have a good team around them.

If you're building a team the question is, which one is going to survive and be elite in 3-4 years. I'm afraid the pounding and 3-4 years put Brady/Brees too far into the downside of their careers.
 

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