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Nobody cares about your tone....
- Thread starter JSandbloom
- Start date
I agree entirely with everything you said here - it's the bitter truth: It's almost impossible to control unless you're big enough to travel around with your own personal sound crew that stakes out the venue beforehand, does sound tests and gets it all right. And after all is said done, as long as there's a rumbling of bass, nobody really notices or cares, often including your own band, unless you're so bad or out of tune that you screw them up.
But what's your answer to the OP's question?
Your own band absolutely should care. It's their sound as well.
Maybe it's because we're a power trio, but all of us notice when something is off.
For me its enough to know that there is most likely at least one bass player in the audience who is watching and listening to what I am doing. Even if the rest of the audience is oblivious that one other bass player is enough for me to want to make sure I sound good, play good etc.
As is often the case, the truth is ...at neither extreme. IMO it's important to care about one's tone, but it's also accurate to state that the bassist (or any other musician) usually cares far far more about it and frequently obsesses over it to an extent that virtually nobody in the target audience even remotely approaches. The vast majority of listeners hear the whole piece as one, and do not break it down. Further, the playing of the piece matters infinitely more than the details of the instrument's tone. Is it fun and positive to care about ones tone? Sure. Can it motivate us? Sure. Is it often more of a distraction than a productive pursuit.......IMHE absolutely yes. That M. Miller quote about figuring out one's rig and then moving on to the music is spot on.......I just wish I had more time to adhere to it 
Wow this thread got long fast. Haven't read every single post but I've browsed through most of it.
I agree with the OP that, for most of the gigs that most of us play, most of the audience doesn't register the fine points of the "perfect tone" we fuss over. Heck, the guitarist in one of my bands is CONSTANTLY showing up with new heads or with a head just back from getting some tweak at the shop and I can't tell what difference it made. Just "sounds like him" to me. HE's very fussy about it though - "ahhh, still not quite the way I want it to be."
I also agree, though, that if WE want a certain tone, no further justification is needed to get it (as long as we can afford the gear and aren't spending ourselves into bankruptcy). You ought to be happy with your sound.
There's also a big difference based on the room, the FOH sound, the crowd that's listening. Very different playing to attentive jazzbos or classical connoisseurs than a classic rock bar crowd. I've played in a giant, boomy, echo-y, high-ceiling glass-walls room, and EVERYONE could tell it sounded like crap.
Also, you can't rely too much on other people's reactions about your tone. I've had different people - musicians - give opposite opinions on the same cab. One guy said it sounds amazing and I should never sell it, the other saying he doesn't like it and I should use my combo instead because it's punchier.
The one thing I don't seem to see anyone saying: I think that even when the audience doesn't consciously register the fine points of your tone, there's still a subconscious reaction. There are times a band just sounds amazing and magical, and times it's just meh and loud. The audience doesn't know that it's because of how you tweaked your overdrive or where you set your compression threshold or boosted the mids or that you stacked your 2x10s vertically rather than using a square 4x10. They just know they like it.
There was one time my old band was playing an outdoor pool party at my Mom's house (graduation party for my nephew). My sister came over during a break and said it was "too loud," right after my sister-in-law had told us it was perfect and not too loud at all. She wanted us to turn down. So I quizzed her on what exactly sounded too loud. She answered that the vocals were too piercing, it was starting to give her a headache. Ahh... too "piercing." So instead of turning the volume down, we tweaked the vocal EQ, rolled the highs back a lot and the mids a little. Played a couple of tunes, "How does it sound now?" "Much better - perfect!" She had no idea what was really wrong with the vocal tone, only that she didn't like it.
I agree with the OP that, for most of the gigs that most of us play, most of the audience doesn't register the fine points of the "perfect tone" we fuss over. Heck, the guitarist in one of my bands is CONSTANTLY showing up with new heads or with a head just back from getting some tweak at the shop and I can't tell what difference it made. Just "sounds like him" to me. HE's very fussy about it though - "ahhh, still not quite the way I want it to be."
I also agree, though, that if WE want a certain tone, no further justification is needed to get it (as long as we can afford the gear and aren't spending ourselves into bankruptcy). You ought to be happy with your sound.
There's also a big difference based on the room, the FOH sound, the crowd that's listening. Very different playing to attentive jazzbos or classical connoisseurs than a classic rock bar crowd. I've played in a giant, boomy, echo-y, high-ceiling glass-walls room, and EVERYONE could tell it sounded like crap.
Also, you can't rely too much on other people's reactions about your tone. I've had different people - musicians - give opposite opinions on the same cab. One guy said it sounds amazing and I should never sell it, the other saying he doesn't like it and I should use my combo instead because it's punchier.
The one thing I don't seem to see anyone saying: I think that even when the audience doesn't consciously register the fine points of your tone, there's still a subconscious reaction. There are times a band just sounds amazing and magical, and times it's just meh and loud. The audience doesn't know that it's because of how you tweaked your overdrive or where you set your compression threshold or boosted the mids or that you stacked your 2x10s vertically rather than using a square 4x10. They just know they like it.
There was one time my old band was playing an outdoor pool party at my Mom's house (graduation party for my nephew). My sister came over during a break and said it was "too loud," right after my sister-in-law had told us it was perfect and not too loud at all. She wanted us to turn down. So I quizzed her on what exactly sounded too loud. She answered that the vocals were too piercing, it was starting to give her a headache. Ahh... too "piercing." So instead of turning the volume down, we tweaked the vocal EQ, rolled the highs back a lot and the mids a little. Played a couple of tunes, "How does it sound now?" "Much better - perfect!" She had no idea what was really wrong with the vocal tone, only that she didn't like it.
Playing well is always important. It's always far more important than tone.
Of course nobody wants "bad tone", but really, all that means is that you're not sitting properly in the mix, or have really poor note definition. I rarely hear it.
"Good tone" simply means a tone that sits well in the mix and has well defined notes. What the OP is talking about is that is that it's really not difficult to get good tone. I can get it when borrowing low-end backline. I've heard players better than me get killer tones from low-budget basses and amps.
I love my boutique gear, my bandmates like my tone too. However I could use inexpensive off-the-rack gear and still get compliments -- assuming I was playing well, of course!
It's all well and good that guys like Victor Wooten and Anthony Jackson use mega-$$$ gear, but it's their technique that makes them great. Jaco, Jamerson, and many bassists today sound amazing with Fender basses and mundane amp rigs. And hell, my favorite AJ tone is still "For the Love of Money", where he used P-bass and a pick (and a phaser).
SO I think if they OP is right then there is no point in being a bass player outside of maybe playing bar gigs (you know...no that's not even right). What is the point of being a player and not being appreciated for it?
Now I do agree that some of the gear is marketed in silly ways and that people will not be able to tell the difference. But I can hear the difference between a P and a J is the sound guy is any good.
Thinking back to the shows I've been too, I can distinctly remember thinking "man, what is that guy playing?" a ton of different times. Most of the time I was surprised to find it wasn't some extremely high end bass. In fact as much as I hate to admit it, 9/10 it was a damn Fender bass. haha. I guess a classic is hard to beat even though I don't play one.
But I think it's beside the point that you focus on only what the audience perceives. You are correct, they don't care. In most cases they don't care that you are even there as a bassist or if you're replaced. Bassists are expendable in most peoples minds, except the true lovers of music. The ones that take the time to learn about what they are listening too and who they are.
Now I do agree that some of the gear is marketed in silly ways and that people will not be able to tell the difference. But I can hear the difference between a P and a J is the sound guy is any good.
Thinking back to the shows I've been too, I can distinctly remember thinking "man, what is that guy playing?" a ton of different times. Most of the time I was surprised to find it wasn't some extremely high end bass. In fact as much as I hate to admit it, 9/10 it was a damn Fender bass. haha. I guess a classic is hard to beat even though I don't play one.
But I think it's beside the point that you focus on only what the audience perceives. You are correct, they don't care. In most cases they don't care that you are even there as a bassist or if you're replaced. Bassists are expendable in most peoples minds, except the true lovers of music. The ones that take the time to learn about what they are listening too and who they are.
BurningSkies
CRAZY BALDHEAD
- Feb 20, 2005
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JCBass
Supporting Member
- Mar 4, 2005
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On a metaphysical note, referring to the tone being in your fingers concept... I believe this is the case because the sound/tone we hear in our heads & feel in our hearts originates there & is then produced by our fingertips when we are truly practiced & connected with our instruments. Granted there are some impossibilities here. An upright will never sound like an 8 string Hamer bass. But most would be surprised what a jazz bass can produce. Now... Does anyone care about tone? Um, I shaging hope so! Will anyone care just as much as you? Possibly... Producer, artist that hires you, the musicians in the band... Then there's the audience. Some listeners will know it sounds great but not know why. That's cool! There are people that will indeed recognize bass tone... Way cool. Then there are people that don't know the bass has 4 strings... Whatever! We need to connect with our instruments and produce OUR tone that we choose for the given situation. Conversely, I've heard professional musicians with consistent poopy tone & they work like crazy. Why? No idea! Look cool? Responsible & on time? Talk the talk? Can play all genres? Played with a famous artist or two & then hired based solely on that? Sometimes, as a working player, maybe tone isn't as important as being able to cover all genres, for example... You decide... For me, tone is paramount & to get good tone you don't have to mess with too much gear. The way an electric bass plays, feels (physically) & looks however, can lend to assisting you in being comfortable which in turn lends to your sound. The truth is that there are many things that might potentially mess with your tone that's out of your control... Mic pres in the studio, producer choices, d.i.s, backline, sound guys... Be as communicative as possible with lending any suggestions to those in charge of your sound & adjust your playing feel to compensate for any deficiencies. It's pretty hard to shag up great tone that originates from the player though. I might change my mind tomorrow but that's what I'm thinking today ;-)
Thank you. I guess my answer would be:
I play to play and I don't fret over amps and cabs and pick ups. Any of "high quality" will do. EQ seems to compensate for any of the natural tuning of an amp or cab. But in a loud, live situation? Forget it- crap shoot on what the audience is going to hear so make it sound the best you can for yourself and take advice from anyone out there who has a suggestion on what to boost/cut? That's all I can do.
- Jun 3, 2009
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- Bassgearu, Music Industry Consulting and Sales. Tech 21, NBE Corp, Sonosphere.
Just about every guy I listen to who plays jazz sounds like Jaco. So I guess they care and have achieved their "tone", but its Jaco's and you all sound the same, to me. A jazz bass, bridge pickup driven semi-farty sound.
Bruce Foxton of the Jam sounds the same whether he is playing his old Ricks or his Fender P's. It has more to do with him and his amp in general. Victor sounds like Victor, no matter what he plays. Its mostly in his hands and technique.
You should care about your "tone", but in the end it just has to sound clean and groove enough to keep a crowd or audience moving. The only time in my life I wanted to cop a tone was the original bass player for Dash Rip Rock. He did a show at a local dive in 1990 that just was near perfect. He had a Fender P through an Ampeg SVT and 8X10. Ripped perfectly. Clean so you could hear every note, bassy to the point of shaking the house, and just ripped through you.
You can ask anyone, they can tell when i'm playing, no matter what. I sit in with many local bands for a couple of songs and everyone will tell me I sound like me, not like the other player.
Then again, when it comes to tone, the only tone I care about is the tone of her cheeks after I give her a wink....
Bruce Foxton of the Jam sounds the same whether he is playing his old Ricks or his Fender P's. It has more to do with him and his amp in general. Victor sounds like Victor, no matter what he plays. Its mostly in his hands and technique.
You should care about your "tone", but in the end it just has to sound clean and groove enough to keep a crowd or audience moving. The only time in my life I wanted to cop a tone was the original bass player for Dash Rip Rock. He did a show at a local dive in 1990 that just was near perfect. He had a Fender P through an Ampeg SVT and 8X10. Ripped perfectly. Clean so you could hear every note, bassy to the point of shaking the house, and just ripped through you.
You can ask anyone, they can tell when i'm playing, no matter what. I sit in with many local bands for a couple of songs and everyone will tell me I sound like me, not like the other player.
Then again, when it comes to tone, the only tone I care about is the tone of her cheeks after I give her a wink....
Honestly, it seems pretty easy to do, so I wouldn't put much stock in it. Just create a thread title like yours--a really broad assumption in very certain terms--and you're off and running. Here are some other easy reply-generators:
"Fenders are the best ever, all others are knockoffs!"
"Fender stinks, they're just living off their name!"
"Expensive instruments aren't worth it"
"Cheap basses are junk!"
Etc., etc.
I am starting these threads right after I post a thread asking if Rickenbacker customer service is the best in the industry.....
"Jaco would have been 20% better if he played a 5 string",
"Tort guards on sunburst Fenders are for losers",
"Lined fretless basses are stupid and so are you for playing one",
"Does a Fodera play and sound 50-100x better than a SX/Squier?"
I have a tone that sits happily in the mix, and when we have a sound guy, I refuse to use a DI - I keep an AKG D112 bass mic in my gear and run that out to him. Then, during soundcheck, I walk out to the dance floor (we usually play community halls and bigger clubs) wirelessly and check my sound myself. Sound guy doesn't usually care about the DI, as long as he gets something with an XLR jack, but I get to keep the tone that I've worked hard and spent good money to achieve.
I understand that DI boxes are pretty much foolproof, but why would a guy who's spent his own money on gear he loves, whether it be Hartke, Ampeg or any other brand, and then completely bypass it...? The mic that I use is about the same price as a good DI box.
You'd never see a guitarist bypass his Marshall or 5150 stack and plug into a little box that eliminates it.
I understand that DI boxes are pretty much foolproof, but why would a guy who's spent his own money on gear he loves, whether it be Hartke, Ampeg or any other brand, and then completely bypass it...? The mic that I use is about the same price as a good DI box.
You'd never see a guitarist bypass his Marshall or 5150 stack and plug into a little box that eliminates it.
Gaolee
Official leathers tester and crash dummy
I am starting these threads right after I post a thread asking if Rickenbacker customer service is the best in the industry.....
"Jaco would have been 20% better if he played a 5 string",
"Tort guards on sunburst Fenders are for losers",
"Lined fretless basses are stupid and so are you for playing one",
"Does a Fodera play and sound 50-100x better than a SX/Squier?"
Don't forget to start a thread questioning whether anything other than an SX is worth it.
Jaco would have been 25% better with a 5. But, indeed, he was 20% less good than he could have been had he used a 5.I am starting these threads right after I post a thread asking if Rickenbacker customer service is the best in the industry.....
"Jaco would have been 20% better if he played a 5 string
Sorry, I'm better at math than I am at bass.
Congratulations. You managed to show that you understand about zero wrt Jaco's playing and insult many of your bass playing brothers and sisters in three sentences.
FWIW, no one "sounds like Jaco," even when they try; reference the WOM recent recordings, if it matters at all to you.
Also, FWIW, I first picked up and played a Jazz bass with round wounds in 1974 before I had even heard of Jaco. The bridge pickup thing was at the time more well known from Chris Squire, among others. Saying that the Jazz Bass bridge pickup sound is "Jaco's" sounds to me like a Jeff Berlin piece of misinformation. And implying that said "sound," if used by current players, is "farty" may be your opinion, which you are welcome to; but, it is needlessly and pointlessly condescending; and further, you aren't even supporting your opinion with any examples.
Here is my less than stellar example of a "bridge pickup jazz sound." I think the sound works. But, perhaps you would have chosen to play it differently, which is great. But, I certainly would not have wasted space saying nasty things about your choices. Have a nice day.
