Notes to play on extended chords

[mjnyc]

Constructing a bass line using a chord chart, if you come across chords that are more complex than the usual major/minor/7th, such as 9th, 11th, #5 etc, would it be "standard practice" to incorporate those extra notes into the line (such as in walking bass), or more common to just treat these chords like, say, 7ths?

Thanks

Michael

 

[JRA]

sure! but it really depends on the context and what the other players might need/expect from you. sometimes the root needs to be expressed. other times = go for it. and lots of 'in between' circumstances. knowing the difference(s) is the actual skill --- anyone can play those notes, otherwise.

 

[FatStringer52]

@JRA nailed it for you. I watched an interview of a very prominent bass player the other day, and for the life of me I can't remember who it was or who the interviewer was, but he said in his beginning days all he did was play the big letters and ignored everything else. The point is that you can make it work anyway you do it. There may be times that those extended chord tones will really enhance the line.

 

[Snarf]

Constructing a bass line using a chord chart, if you come across chords that are more complex than the usual major/minor/7th, such as 9th, 11th, #5 etc, would it be "standard practice" to incorporate those extra notes into the line (such as in walking bass), or more common to just treat these chords like, say, 7ths?

Thanks

Michael

A #5 is part of the lower structure of the chord, so that should definitely get special consideration. 9ths, you'll be playing 2nds as part of your lines on weak beats anyway. 11ths are passing tones as well, but you'd probably want to avoid them on major chords.

Besides the #5, any other diatonic extension is just part of normal playing and, IME, doesn't need any extra attention.

Edit: That comment about 11ths . . . it's more dependent on context. And that context would be tempo, and whether you're using a chromatic walkup from the 3rd to the 5th. Just don't play 11ths/4ths on a strong beat. Sounds bad, man.

 

[ladybug]

IMHO it's our job to play those lower notes. As stated, #5 is different than a b13 ... #5 should be played. But how does the soloist get the "crunchy" sound if the bass note matches it. Bass notes dictate what chords they are. C,E,G,A ...is CMAJ 6 also Amin7. We have the power.

 

[Malcolm35]

Common practice for us mortals, read the chord from left to right and get as many of the notes into the bassline as needed.

Two chords per measure - in a 4/4 measure we only has four beats so the song decides how many beats (notes) each chord gets..... Does the first chord get one beat, two, or three?

In this case you do not have a lot of time to get two full chords into the bass line.

Common practice, root first, five next, the 3, 7, 6 and 8 next. Other octave 8-9-10-11-12,etc. are kinda left to you. If they sound good use them...

In the Country or Praise I played I seldom went into the second octave. Now jazz would explore the second octave.

 

[Lobster11]

I watched an interview of a very prominent bass player the other day, and for the life of me I can't remember who it was or who the interviewer was, but he said in his beginning days all he did was play the big letters and ignored everything else.

This is great: I'm thinking about changing my signature to "Just play the big letters."

 

[Malcolm35]

Big letters works for me.

 

[Wasnex]

Constructing a bass line using a chord chart, if you come across chords that are more complex than the usual major/minor/7th, such as 9th, 11th, #5 etc, would it be "standard practice" to incorporate those extra notes into the line (such as in walking bass), or more common to just treat these chords like, say, 7ths?

Thanks

Michael

In straight ahead jazz it's most common to see extensions when they are modified. In other words is more common to see D7b9 or D7+9 than simply D9.

Normally walking bass lines will include other notes than the chord tones. In other words its not unusual to play a 9, 11, or 6 over a 7 chord. I can't speak for anyone else, but personally I find the 6th to be most ambiguous and problematic. But it's actually fairly common to play a major 6th over all minor 7 chords even if the chord is a "i". Here's a good article that explains: Everything You Don't Know About Minor Harmony in Jazz • Jazzadvice

It's also not unusual to play non-diatonic tones: I suggest reviewing at least the concepts of chromatic approach and chromatic surround in this book: [Bob magnusson] the_art_of_walking_bass_a_method_(book_za.org) (slideshare.net).

I use chromatic approaches intuitively. Chromatic surround is a relatively new concept for me...and bit more difficult to use effectively IMHO. But I think it would become intuitive if I actually practiced .

I think of bass lines as being formed in two ways: 1 arpeggiated, 2. linear.

Arpeggiated is generally stacked chord tones. But in some instances you can also stack non chord tones. For example if a chord lasts more than one bar you can play an arpeggiated sequence that alternates been chord tones and none chord tones, but it's usually a good idea to bookend chord tones around the non chord arpeggio.

Linear is essentially scale form. You might play something like 1,2,3,4 over a I chord leading to a V chord.

You can also use a hybrid approach that mixes linear and arpeggiated.

Most people seem to prefer the sound of a linear walking line, but IMHO the best choice can depend on the style of music you are playing. Sometimes arpeggiated is required. Usually I alternate and the proportion of each type of line varies, depending on the chord changes and style.

Regarding learning to walk...you start of simple and get more complex as you become more knowledgeable. So I would suggest you learn to play arpeggiated lines first, linear lines second, and finally learn to mix in non-diatonic tones.

To learn arpeggiated, you might start with just the roots. Next you might alternate between root 5 and root 3. When you get comfortable with that you might throw in the 7.

When you are ready to start trying to build linear lines: Generally you play the root on 1, consonant chord tones on 1 and 3, and non-chord tones on 2 and 4. As you get more advanced you can learn to break these rules.

I actually learned to walk by copying recordings note for note long before I had any grasp of music theory. I was lucky enough to play in a university big band for two years when I was in high-school. The music director gave me the music and recordings. Since I could not read chord changes I had to learn the recordings well enough to start and stop during band rehearsals.

 

[mjnyc]

Wonderful information. Many thanks! Will digest…

 

[themickster]

If it sounds right, it is right.

 

[JazznFunk]

A lot depends on what the melody is doing. If the melody is strongly stating the extensions - or whatever other chordal instrument is in the group is also voicing those, then you will want to focus more on staying on the root, but maybe 'hinting' at those extensions in a tasteful way where appropriate... if you lose the root in the bass then those other voicings may not sound right - or it may sound oddly suspended, and you'll get funny looks from the guitarist or keyboardist. Now, in a trio context or a context without a chordal instrument laying thick harmonies down all the time, you can really have fun experimenting with busier lines that work in those extensions, or even playing double-stops that involve a combination of those notes. It's all about the situation, and if you have a big band with a lot going on, keep it big, fat, and simple.

 

[Ekulati]

Gggrr, you as the lowest sounding note in any given sonority, need to use those upper extension notes VERY judiciously. This is where it really is art more than science -- learned over a LONG time of playing. Hard to teach this or explain it, but if, for example, you're hitting that sharp whatever-the-heck of the chord, especially on a STRONG beat, you run the risk of ruining both the tonality and the groove. Sorry to be such a kill joy.

 

[JonathanPDX]

A few tips regarding approaching chords with extensions:

Those extensions (IE the non-chord tones: 9, 11, 13) exist as part of the music whether or not anyone is actually playing that pitch at a given moment. If the chart says C13 the song has an A in that bar, even if you and the keyboard and the guitar and the melody all for some reason don't actually play an A.

Typically, someone needs to be stating or at least hinting at the full quality of the chord. When you're playing with other instruments you will often hear them covering that end of the chord, leaving your job more focused on the fundamentals. However, when the melody drops out, or the keys start soloing, you want to be ready to jump in and provide the full context by covering those extensions.

You can control how strongly you state what the chord is. You can walk or fill through one or more extensions or just use one as a light passing tone on your way to the next chord. It's a great exercise to practice playing with the intent of shouting at the audience "THIS IS THE CHORD!" and playing a more subtle "This is the area of the chord but I'm going to leave the details a bit ambiguous."

All those extensions are giving you a ton of information on structure, modes/scales, and clues about where the song is headed and even what the melody will be on top. When you see B-7b5 you don't just know the notes, you know that chord is shouting "Locrian! 7th mode of the major scale!" That chord is far more likely to resolve to a V chord than to sit there for a while in a big mess of tension.

Context is everything, so there's no one single correct way to walk. But your goal should be understanding your bass and the chord fully, so if the context requires you to fill in some of the extensions or cover for other instruments who are not, you are capable of doing so.

 

[Bob_Ross]

All those extensions are giving you a ton of information on structure, modes/scales, and clues about where the song is headed and even what the melody will be on top.

^^^QFT

When you see B-7b5 ...[snip]...That chord is far more likely to resolve to a V chord than to sit there for a while in a big mess of tension.

...unless you're playing Wagner

 

[Pings Bass]

Keep in mind that extended chords are often transcriptions, and approximations of what the players on a given session were doing.

Other times, they're a distinct part of the song and sometimes can or should be played on the bass. Take Chet Baker's version of My Funny Valentine. It starts with just bass and vocals, and the bass plays the C root of the opening Cm with the descending extensions (maj7, 7, 6). I can think of lots of examples that are less obvious than this, where there is some kind of chromatic (or other) movement in the chord extensions that works great on the bass.

When in doubt, and until you learn what the rest of the band is doing, stick to the lower parts of the chord lest you stomp on or clash with the melody.

 

[AngelCrusher]

Constructing a bass line using a chord chart, if you come across chords that are more complex than the usual major/minor/7th, such as 9th, 11th, #5 etc, would it be "standard practice" to incorporate those extra notes into the line (such as in walking bass), or more common to just treat these chords like, say, 7ths?

Thanks

Michael

Its really worth spending the time to learn the arpeggios for these chords. It will take your playing to another level.

 

[g-dude]

sure! but it really depends on the context and what the other players might need/expect from you. sometimes the root needs to be expressed. other times = go for it. and lots of 'in between' circumstances. knowing the difference(s) is the actual skill --- anyone can play those notes, otherwise.

I literally asked my upright bass teacher the same question, and he provided the same answer - it’s all about what everyone else is doing.

 

[fdeck]

If nothing else, root on 1 lets you hear what's going on and figure out what the other notes should be, by ear.

At least, that works until it doesn't.

 

[g-dude]

Two chords per measure - in a 4/4 measure we only has four beats

Even if you’re walking the bass, you can actually sneak in the occasional cheeky eighth or sixteenth notes. Likewise, if you have a two feel (two notes per bar), you can actually add some more notes in if you can do it in a way that it still has a two feel to it.

The time you’re seeing these interesting chords is typically when you’re playing jazz, and you really don’t want to get a super stodgy sound. Clap and say the following sentence in 4/4 and you’ll see how in the second bar still swings and doesn’t disrupt the feel, even though there’s an extra “note” in the measure:

look AT me I’M | walk ING-the bass LINE

Which sounds a lot better than:

i am play ing | jazz right now man

…because it doesn’t swing (no emphasis on the 2 & 4), and it’s just really straight forward and on the nose. Basically, if you’re sounding like jazz that’s in a scene in a movie or TV show, you need to loosen up and not be so rigid. You can even play with the note durations a bit as well to create a push-pull type motion.