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Notes to play on extended chords

#21
mjnyc said:
Constructing a bass line using a chord chart, if you come across chords that are more complex than the usual major/minor/7th, such as 9th, 11th, #5 etc, would it be "standard practice" to incorporate those extra notes into the line (such as in walking bass), or more common to just treat these chords like, say, 7ths?

Thanks

Michael
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That's a great question Michael but unfortunately IMO there is no "one" "right" answer. It depends. What is the melody line/note at that chord? What other instrumentation is there? What are they playing? Maybe they're doing all that is necessary to give the right emphasis to the sound of that extended chord? Maybe it's best for you to stay at home to provide the root for the chord.

For my taste, I think that in general the bass should tread upon those extended notes carefully and sparingly. However, when it is appropriate, the bass making the extended chord can be very musically interesting - not just to bass players :) To give you a completely nebulous answer, let your ears and your creativity be your guide in the context of each situation in which you are playing.
 
#23
Technical answer: Any chord tone is fair game in a walking bass line.

My answer: I tend to believe that the guitars and pianos are covering the extensions, so I tend to stick with the key and chord quality of the base triad/seventh chord, with the following notable exceptions:
  1. In an alt chord, or chords where all the extensions are flat or sharp, I will alter my linear walking baselines to include the alterations.
  2. In creating certain pedal lines, suspensions, or chromatic lines, I will take advantage of extensions, as required.
  3. Because my lines are linear, they usually fill the space between one and five of the chord, so if the fifth is raised or lowered, I will use that alteration.
Note: this only applies to walking bass lines— all bets are off when it comes to solos and fills.
 
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#24
Something that helped me a lot about the extensions, but not necessarily meant to be played all the time, just for knowing better the instrument, and as context for practice, is to play all the extensions on each diatonic chord (Ionian, Dorian, ... up to Locrian), for that I'll use the 4 strings for the roots (and the root and the third in minor cords), so first, let suppose you star on G (as I degree chord, Ionian).

So I'll play ascending G-B-D-F# (Gmaj7), then I'll add some extensions over it, inside the notes of the Ionian scale, A-C (9 wich is the next octave 2, and 11, that is the next octave 4), then I stard descending from the "10" (next octave 3), that's B, then the 8 (high G), then the 6 (E), then the 4 (C), the 2 (A) and the the 7 before the root (F#), and at last, the root itself (G). So you have:

Ascending arpeggio: G-B-D-F#-A-C (1-3-5-7-9-11)
Descending arpeggio: B-G-E-C-A-F#-(G) (10-8-6-4-2-7-1)

Then I'll move to the next degree, Dorian and do the same but by using the notes on the Dorian mode on that "arpeggio way":

Ascending: A-C-E-G-B-D (1-b3-5-b7-9-11)
Descending: C-A-F#-D-B-G-(A) (b10-8-6-4-2-b7-1)

So I'll keep doing this on each degree, up to Locrian, and back again to Ionian, it's a good warm-up excercise, also helps you see each scale from an "arpeggio" perspective specially talking about muscle memory, note that I'm just playing the scale but with a distance of thirds!

Also if you wanna practice it with a metronome, be sure you don't play the last note (the root), so you can play the arpeggios straight in 3/4 (x4 bars), or in 4/4 (x3 bars), because the complete arpeggio without the last note (that again-root) it 12 pulses.

Also you can transcribe different scales systems, like the minor harmonic and practice to play them by a distance of thirds (like mentioned).
 
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#26
What notes you can and should play depends a lot on what octave you’re playing them. Difference frequencies (aka beat notes) can muddy things a lot. In our lowest octave, octaves sound fine - the difference frequency is the same as the lower of the two played notes, so everything works. Fifths, you gotta go up an octave for things to sound OK, as the interval is too close down low. Thirds, you have to play even higher, or it’s mud. A ninth is a Very close note to the octave - if you play a ninth, and the guitar or keys player is playing the root in that octave, instant mud. For that reasons, 7ths and 9ths are pretty much a bad idea for us, except in very specific circumstances.
 
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#27
As fdeck stated, root on the 1, the rest is up to you.
You will never hear another fellow musician complain about root on the 1, as a matter of a fact they might expect it.

Think about it, the extended chords are really made for either chords or melody, unless you're doing those you're stepping on others feet.
Serve the song not the bassist.

Good luck!
 
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#28
mjnyc said:
Constructing a bass line using a chord chart, if you come across chords that are more complex than the usual major/minor/7th, such as 9th, 11th, #5 etc, would it be "standard practice" to incorporate those extra notes into the line (such as in walking bass), or more common to just treat these chords like, say, 7ths?
Click to expand...

The extensions in jazz compositions (as opposed to American Songbook standards) are there to support the melody. In standards, if you see them on a chart it's because the arranger (or some famous performer) liked that harmony better than the original.

In both cases, the extensions are there for use as melody notes. As the bassist playing the chords as 7ths always works when walking. If you hear clearly that others are soloing or comping with extensions, then go ahead and use them (the 9 is usually safe)...but don't start throwing them in everywhere if noone else is outlining that harmony. My ear isn't that great so I avoid them when walking.

When soloing, you can use the extensions freely and hopefully whoever is comping will pay attention and not hang you out to dry :meh:

For solos I think of the extensions as stacks of triads.

For example, a C maj9 chord (C E G B D) is a G triad superimposed over a C triad:

C E G B D C E G B D

So playing melodies emphasizing the G triad, I'm outlining the C maj9 chord. Use a Gmin triad for Cdom9. If I superimpose Bmin over C, now I have C #11. There's also an Emin9 chord hiding in there that can you play off. Etc.

C E G B D F# C E G B D F# C E G B D F#
 
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#29
JonathanPDX said:
A few tips regarding approaching chords with extensions:

Those extensions (IE the non-chord tones: 9, 11, 13) exist as part of the music whether or not anyone is actually playing that pitch at a given moment. If the chart says C13 the song has an A in that bar, even if you and the keyboard and the guitar and the melody all for some reason don't actually play an A.

Typically, someone needs to be stating or at least hinting at the full quality of the chord. When you're playing with other instruments you will often hear them covering that end of the chord, leaving your job more focused on the fundamentals. However, when the melody drops out, or the keys start soloing, you want to be ready to jump in and provide the full context by covering those extensions.

You can control how strongly you state what the chord is. You can walk or fill through one or more extensions or just use one as a light passing tone on your way to the next chord. It's a great exercise to practice playing with the intent of shouting at the audience "THIS IS THE CHORD!" and playing a more subtle "This is the area of the chord but I'm going to leave the details a bit ambiguous."

All those extensions are giving you a ton of information on structure, modes/scales, and clues about where the song is headed and even what the melody will be on top. When you see B-7b5 you don't just know the notes, you know that chord is shouting "Locrian! 7th mode of the major scale!" That chord is far more likely to resolve to a V chord than to sit there for a while in a big mess of tension.

Context is everything, so there's no one single correct way to walk. But your goal should be understanding your bass and the chord fully, so if the context requires you to fill in some of the extensions or cover for other instruments who are not, you are capable of doing so.
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This is how I view it as well and what I came here to say. I find 'most often', those notes are in the chord because they are in the melody, and its 'usually most important' to build the roots of the chord and let that not be in the melody, but there are plenty of instances where it makes sense to help emphasize them.
 
#30
Always keep in mind the extensions, with the third, give the spice. So they will often be used by the lead or solo at that time. If you are soling, go a head and play them. If you are not, use them as little as possible. The solo or lead will count on you to play the root or fifth. If you don't the others notes loose context and become useless. (loose the spice)
If someone wants to solo over a D7 chord and you are playing A and C al the time you loose the context of the D chord and it could be a lot of other things like A minor or F major. A whole other thing.
So on 1 and 3 keep it to rooth and 5.
 
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#31
JRA said:
sure! but it really depends on the context and what the other players might need/expect from you. sometimes the root needs to be expressed. other times = go for it. and lots of 'in between' circumstances. knowing the difference(s) is the actual skill --- anyone can play those notes, otherwise.
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^^^ This. Another thing to consider is that those extended notes make perfect passing tones when moving between chords (e.g. fills).
 
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#33
mjnyc said:
Constructing a bass line using a chord chart, if you come across chords that are more complex than the usual major/minor/7th, such as 9th, 11th, #5 etc, would it be "standard practice" to incorporate those extra notes into the line (such as in walking bass), or more common to just treat these chords like, say, 7ths?

Thanks

Michael
Click to expand...
Look at the musical context: what's the melody doing? What are the lyrics? Are there sly secondary meanings you can call attention to with your note choice? Based on this, choose your upper extensions (and the respective qualities) accordingly.

There's no wrong choice here, but there are a lot of "better" choices. Music is a form of story telling, and harmony doesn't always need to be functional if it serves the narrative.
 
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#35
For a bass line:
I rarely choose think beyond the 7th
Extensions in the chart are just "don't clash with me" notes
Rarely extensions can imply some cool chromatic or step wise motion, used judiciously
They also can imply what mode(s) you could use, if you want to go down that rabbit hole.

once you get beyond the triad, style has more to do with note choice
Without context, theory is just theoretical.
 
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#36
As others have said, a lot depends on the context and the melody. For non diatonic chord notes, look for why those extension were used. Usually they are there to get from one non diatonic chord to another. For instance, in the key of D, Writing in an E major chord that moves to E minor, so the E major gets a G, and is written as G Maj #9. Sometimes assumed the E maj can handle a 6th or a maj7, (D#) going to the E minor where it can have a dominant 7 (D). But if the melody won't handle it, then fuggabouddit. My cheat is, when I see this is to simply use the melody notes to get through the parts that could get sticky.

Then there are passages where the bass is smoothing out a chord progression by playing a note that is not the root: G, G maj. G dom7, G6. So the bass plays G, Gb, F, E. Or, a iii, vi, 11, V7, (in E - G# min, C# min, F# min, B7) can also be played as a descending chromatic bass line - G#, G, F#, F with introduced tri tone substitutions every other chord. Honestly when I see a ii V7 or that 3625 motion, my brain goes right to the chromatic bass part. So if you think like that and superimpose tri tones upon the "stock" progressions you will get some interesting extensions.
 
#37
I find it helpful to think of the extension notation as telling me what notes NOT to play. Like, if it says b9, I definitely avoid walking with the M2. I'm not necessarily going to play m9's all over the place, because that usually doesn't sound great in the bass line unless it's leading to something, but I'm going to strongly avoid playing the "wrong" note.
 
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#38
BarfanyShart said:
I find it helpful to think of the extension notation as telling me what notes NOT to play. Like, if it says b9, I definitely avoid walking with the M2. I'm not necessarily going to play m9's all over the place, because that usually doesn't sound great in the bass line unless it's leading to something, but I'm going to strongly avoid playing the "wrong" note.
Click to expand...

Yes, but what if it’s b9 and natural 22?
 
#39
Are you soloing. If not do not worry about the extensions for now, unless there is no harmony instrument, like sax-bass-drum trio and even then - I will likely keep to basics. Leading and passing tones as seasoning.

Case in point - Spain is basically an Autumn leaves structure but because of the groove however far the pianist is taking it - I usually stick to the root and fifth and maybe 3rd and 7th except for some occasional tritone substitution. Nothing is irritating to the soloist or piano player than a bass player who plays it so out but cannot bring it back in.
 
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