Notes to play on extended chords

[Mushroo]

This was more theoretical than concrete about a specific song, just looking at some chord charts for a few songs.

I have a more "concrete" learning style so I hope you don't mind if I throw a song example out there for discussion? And if you have any specific songs you want to talk about, I love that kind of conversation.

Here's a Ray Brown performance of Duke Ellington's "Take the A Train." This is the first song that I remember ever learning as a beginner, to so prominently feature an altered chord. Ellington really hits you over the head with it; it's a signature element of the composition. In this transcription, I am referring to the D7(#5) chord, first encountered in measures 3-4. Do you find any of Ray Brown's note choices surprising over the D7(#5), or is he playing pretty much what you'd expect? (I personally really like the sound of F natural to F sharp, or you could think of it as E# to F#.)

Another interesting musical moment is the last measure of the B section. We have G7 going to G7(b9), so just in the space of 4 beats, a microcosm of the difference between altered and non-altered versions of a G7 chord. One thing I was listening for, I was curious, did Ray Brown and his trio play that b9 alteration during the solos, or only during the melody?

 

[SLO Surfer]

I have a more "concrete" learning style so I hope you don't mind if I throw a song example out there for discussion? And if you have any specific songs you want to talk about, I love that kind of conversation.

Here's a Ray Brown performance of Duke Ellington's "Take the A Train." This is the first song that I remember ever learning as a beginner, to so prominently feature an altered chord. Ellington really hits you over the head with it; it's a signature element of the composition. In this transcription, I am referring to the D7(#5) chord, first encountered in measures 3-4. Do you find any of Ray Brown's note choices surprising over the D7(#5), or is he playing pretty much what you'd expect? (I personally really like the sound of F natural to F sharp, or you could think of it as E# to F#.)

Another interesting musical moment is the last measure of the B section. We have G7 going to G7(b9), so just in the space of 4 beats, a microcosm of the difference between altered and non-altered versions of a G7 chord. One thing I was listening for, I was curious, did Ray Brown and his trio play that b9 alteration during the solos, or only during the melody?

So good! And a great example that IF you know what you’re doing when creating a bass line, you don’t HAVE to play root on beat 1 and the fifth on beat 3 (In jazz walking lines). It’s all about the direction of your bass line and the direction of the chords. Ray also almost always outlines a ii-V (Emi A7) over the C6 leading to the D7(#5) from bars 2 to 3 of the A section.

As most have said, it depends on the context. But if you’re just walking on the root-3rd-5th-7th, and omit all other notes, (in jazz at least) your bass line would get very stale very quick. If you’re adding whole or half steps, linear scale motion, or passing tones to your line, then you’re already hitting extensions, whether they’re indicated in the chart or not.

Mostly I’d recommend studying the bass lines of bassists you like. The Ray Brown transcription video Mushroo posted above is so packed with extremely valuable bass line creating info!!! Start there. Dissect every note he chose and how it relates to the chord structures. You’ll find more extensions/substitutions than you bargained for!

 

[MichelD]

If you see a b5 in a chart don't play a 5

 

[g-dude]

I have a more "concrete" learning style so I hope you don't mind if I throw a song example out there for discussion? And if you have any specific songs you want to talk about, I love that kind of conversation.

Here's a Ray Brown performance of Duke Ellington's "Take the A Train." This is the first song that I remember ever learning as a beginner, to so prominently feature an altered chord. Ellington really hits you over the head with it; it's a signature element of the composition. In this transcription, I am referring to the D7(#5) chord, first encountered in measures 3-4. Do you find any of Ray Brown's note choices surprising over the D7(#5), or is he playing pretty much what you'd expect? (I personally really like the sound of F natural to F sharp, or you could think of it as E# to F#.)

Another interesting musical moment is the last measure of the B section. We have G7 going to G7(b9), so just in the space of 4 beats, a microcosm of the difference between altered and non-altered versions of a G7 chord. One thing I was listening for, I was curious, did Ray Brown and his trio play that b9 alteration during the solos, or only during the melody?

Except that F natural isn’t in D7(#5) but F# is…but when he plays an F right before the F# early in the measure, it sort of gives it that bluesy feeling of an ambiguous third.

 

[g-dude]

If you see a b5 in a chart don't play a 5

Of course, if you see a #11 then you have some choices to make…

 

[mjnyc]

I have a more "concrete" learning style so I hope you don't mind if I throw a song example out there for discussion? And if you have any specific songs you want to talk about, I love that kind of conversation.

Here's a Ray Brown performance of Duke Ellington's "Take the A Train."

The discussion of the specifics of the bass line is above my head, I confess, but this song and the bassline are just mindblowing. Mesmerizing. Without understanding what the notes are in bars 2-3, some of them seem just so... right.

 

[Mushroo]

Mostly I’d recommend studying the bass lines of bassists you like. The Ray Brown transcription video Mushroo posted above is so packed with extremely valuable bass line creating info!!! Start there. Dissect every note he chose and how it relates to the chord structures. You’ll find more extensions/substitutions than you bargained for!

It's such a simple thing, but perhaps my favorite moment in the entire performance, the half notes in measure 10. Maybe 99 out of 100 bassists would be tempted to throw in an extra grace note or triplet. To simply play half notes is a musically confident 'boss' move.

 

[Mushroo]

The discussion of the specifics of the bass line is above my head, I confess, but this song and the bassline are just mindblowing. Mesmerizing. Without understanding what the notes are in bars 2-3, some of them seem just so... right.

I thought "Take the A Train" would be a good example because it is slow tempo, C Major. Is there another tune you'd rather look at? Something you're working on in your own practice, maybe?

I'm happy to talk you through this example, though. I geek out on this stuff.

D7 = D F# A C, and A is the 5th degree, so therefore logically, D7(#5) should be D F# A# C, do you agree?

Let's look at what Ray Brown actually plays in that m. 3-4 lick over the D7(#5) chord, does he play the notes we expect, or does he surprise us by avoiding those notes, and playing something unexpected?

D E F F# G# A# C D E F# E D C A# G# F# E A A

Looks textbook to me. All of the expected notes of the chord are present and accounted for: D F# A# C, just as we would expect.

That's the broad strokes. From there you can drill down into fine-tooth details (like "why F instead of E#?" or "why G# instead of G?" or "what's up with the A natural at the end?"). But the primary, most important thing I took away from this example, is that the notes of a D7(#5) chord are D F# A# C, and Ray Brown arpeggiates that chord quite clearly, emphasizing all of the expected chord tones. In baseball terms, he "touches all the bases."

Or, as you put it, it just sounds so "right."

Please don't think of "Take the A Train" as "above your head." This is a slow-tempo tune in C Major. You are asking good questions that show you are an inquisitive and curious personality. You can do this!

 

[mjnyc]

I thought "Take the A Train" would be a good example because it is slow tempo, C Major...

Thanks again. I think I begin to see what you're saying... Apart from the bass line, the D7(#5) chord itself is wonderful in the context of the song, and by arpeggiating that chord the bass partakes of the wonderfulness.

I assume if one were to just play roots, or roots plus 3, 5 and/or 7, to outline the non-extended chord, it would sound ok, maybe even good, but adding the #5 to the bassline takes it up a whole level.

I've been playing just under a year, currently taking zoom jazz bass lessons once a week and recently started walking bass. It's challenging trying to play the current chord while looking ahead to the next one... so little time! But one thing I noticed is that I'm just beginning to be able to locate some notes on the fretboard without looking at it, if they're close enough together. Saving that split second of eyes going from paper to fretboard and back seems to make a real difference, it's like a gift of time to think ahead.

Michael

 

[Wasnex]

Thanks again. I think I begin to see what you're saying... Apart from the bass line, the D7(#5) chord itself is wonderful in the context of the song, and by arpeggiating that chord the bass partakes of the wonderfulness.

I assume if one were to just play roots, or roots plus 3, 5 and/or 7, to outline the non-extended chord, it would sound ok, maybe even good, but adding the #5 to the bassline takes it up a whole level.

I've been playing just under a year, currently taking zoom jazz bass lessons once a week and recently started walking bass. It's challenging trying to play the current chord while looking ahead to the next one... so little time! But one thing I noticed is that I'm just beginning to be able to locate some notes on the fretboard without looking at it, if they're close enough together. Saving that split second of eyes going from paper to fretboard and back seems to make a real difference, it's like a gift of time to think ahead.

Michael

You might want to take a look at Stella by Starlight as well .

I believe if you dig in, you will agree there are lot's of implied b9s and b13s that are not indicated in the chord symbols. For example you might play an F natural in a walking line over E-7b5 to A7b9. The idea is these changes imply ii/V in D minor, so although the chords are altered, you are are actually playing diatonic to the implied key.

 

[g-dude]

You might want to take a look at Stella by Starlight as well .
View attachment 4469493
I believe if you dig in, you will agree there are lot's of implied b9s and b13s that are not indicated in the chord symbols. For example you might play an F natural in a walking line over E-7b5 to A7b9. The idea is these changes imply ii/V in D minor, so although the chords are altered, you are are actually playing diatonic to the implied key.

I absolutely hate the that first E-7b5 because I see it, and then I see the A in the melody, and I’m like DOES NOT COMPUTE.

Of course, if it was an Emin11b5, I’d be fine.

 

[mambo4]

My takeaway for now, as I’m fairly new to this, is to keep it simple

The point of keep it simple so you can listen
listen well and you'll hear in your head where not simple will fit best

 

[Mushroo]

I absolutely hate the that first E-7b5 because I see it, and then I see the A in the melody, and I’m like DOES NOT COMPUTE.

Of course, if it was an Emin11b5, I’d be fine.

Pro tip I got from a Joe Pass instructional video:

It's almost always safe to think of a ii-V progression as simply a V chord.

In this example, when you see 1 measure of E-7b5 and 1 measure of A7b9, there is absolutely no harm (according to Joe Pass) simplifying that in your mind, to 2 measures of A7b9.

If you think of it that way (2 bars of A7b9), then the note choice A in the melody makes perfect sense.

 

[g-dude]

Pro tip I got from a Joe Pass instructional video:

It's almost always safe to think of a ii-V progression as simply a V chord.

In this example, when you see 1 measure of E-7b5 and 1 measure of A7b9, there is absolutely no harm (according to Joe Pass) simplifying that in your mind, to 2 measures of A7b9.

If you think of it that way (2 bars of A7b9), then the note choice A in the melody makes perfect sense.

Yeah, but Joe Pass needed six strings, so….

But seriously, that’s a great way of thinking about it.

Joe Pass is amazing in that he inspires you to learn jazz guitar, while at the same time crushes your dreams when you realize just how much time, effort, and talent went into his playing.

I mean, if EVH, Clapton, or Yngwie had released an album called Virtuoso, everyone would have been hyper critical of them. Joe Pass releases one, and people listen and go, “Yep. Sounds pretty accurate”.

 

[Groove Master]

If you see a b5 in a chart don't play a 5

Not true. If you know harmony you'll find out that the desired sound is very often the #11 so the P5 is actually the best note to play over a b5.

 

[Bob_Ross]

the desired sound is very often the #11 so the P5 is actually the best note to play over a b5.

^^^This is sad but true...but only because there are too many arrangers or copyists who indicate the chord name incorrectly.

 

[IamGroot]

Lots of great insights so far.

I really liked @Wasnex's comment:

"I actually learned to walk by copying recordings note for note long before I had any grasp of music theory. I was lucky enough to play in a university big band for two years when I was in high-school. The music director gave me the music and recordings. Since I could not read chord changes I had to learn the recordings well enough to start and stop during band rehearsals."

REAL BOOK chord changes are ADVISORY only. Dont become a slave to those changes. What is key is to hear and respect the melody and understand what thoses changes imply. Normally, being able to just look at the sheet music and understand what is going down is great. If you see Em7b5 /A7b9, and the next chord is Dm7, congrats you have a 2 5 1 in minor. In Stella, nope, something else is going on. Stella is a great example of shifting tone centers.

If you play with great jazz musicians, they will throw shocker substitutions at you and the chords on the paper become useless and your ears have to wake up. Check out some Chick Corea for example.

Being able to play a walking line over the written real book changes is definitely an excllent skill, but know the melody and be prepared to deviate or you will be assimilated by the real book jazz clowns.

 

[IamGroot]

One side note. I go to a doctor that pipes in smooth jazz standards which I find totally predictable and very annoying. I would rather listen to Heavy Death EMO or whatever.

 

[IamGroot]

I have a more "concrete" learning style so I hope you don't mind if I throw a song example out there for discussion? And if you have any specific songs you want to talk about, I love that kind of conversation.

Here's a Ray Brown performance of Duke Ellington's "Take the A Train." This is the first song that I remember ever learning as a beginner, to so prominently feature an altered chord. Ellington really hits you over the head with it; it's a signature element of the composition. In this transcription, I am referring to the D7(#5) chord, first encountered in measures 3-4. Do you find any of Ray Brown's note choices surprising over the D7(#5), or is he playing pretty much what you'd expect? (I personally really like the sound of F natural to F sharp, or you could think of it as E# to F#.)

Another interesting musical moment is the last measure of the B section. We have G7 going to G7(b9), so just in the space of 4 beats, a microcosm of the difference between altered and non-altered versions of a G7 chord. One thing I was listening for, I was curious, did Ray Brown and his trio play that b9 alteration during the solos, or only during the melody?

Thanks for posting this.

 

[IamGroot]

Every major b13 chord hides an augmented triad waiting to come out in your bass solo. Learning this from piano and sax players.

For example, over C consider a cell with G aug triad, Ab Major Triad, G Major Triad resolving back to C .