Observations from a recent metal show

[retslock]

if i were paying to see a "show" i wouldn't be disappointed if i found out that any of it was pre-programmed in any of the ways that have been discussed.

if i were paying to see a "performance" i think i'd expect to see actual performances (live playing).

the differences can get blurred, but i don't have strict rules regarding any of it.

as a musician, i've done it every which way and i'm comfortable doing my part in almost any context. i don't require an amp if IEMs are better, or vice versa. i can play to a click/tracks, and i'm down for almost any type of musical expression.

i think the thread has been an interesting read, and i appreciate the OP's observations, but in the whole scheme of things: how an act chooses to perform, or put on a show, is up to them. let the market decide.

The spectacle seems to be the dominant stadium concert event these days. Think trapezes, huge video screens, dancers and pyrotechnics etc. Actual music performances seem to be using smaller theatre/concert hall/club venues at least in this part of the world.

 

[NeonVomit]

I wonder if we would ever see this genres like jazz or blues. I can’t imagine a blues guitarist playing through an amp modeler. Nor a jazz cat.

The best blues guitarist I've ever known uses a Line6 Helix.

 

[Deleted member 271037]

You're lucky then! Most of us barroom warriors don't have this luxury.

Personally I think YOU're the lucky one who gets to play real amps rather than a computer hooked up to a PA, but that's just me.

As for another poster's comment about spending money on a good PA rather than amps:

In MY world the only reason for going ampless would be less heavy lifting and a fast, hassle free setup. There are other reasons too of course but the main thing for MY needs would be less stuff to carry. A good PA optimized for ampless/IEM (rather than a cheap, rehearsal space vocal PA) would mean considerably more weight/space than the amps it's replacing. Besides, how often would you actually need that expensive PA you've spent your hard earned money on? Most venues already have permanently installed PAs and smaller venues (bars, coffee shops, etc.) with poor quality "vocal only" PAs (+maybe a DI'd keyboard in a pinch) would most likely not allow you to pull down their rig to make room for your ampless/IEM-optimised PA.

There are some types of smaller gigs where going ampless isn't really an option. At least not yet.

Even with gigs where it can be done without any practical issues I personally don't see many benefits except if:

1) You REALLY don't want to (or can't) carry a lot of heavy gear

2) You rely on a lot of different presets/tones (like a cover band) or presets triggered by a click track (like many metal bands do).

Triggered presets can of course be extremely convenient for SOME musical genres but only for genres where a click track is appropriate. Metal is one of them but for many other genres of music using a click track will completely suck the life out of the music and not really an option.

It's all about finding the right tools for the job. For some musicians going ampless is a great choice. Personally I don't like it very much. I prefer playing real amps on stage and so do every single musician I know outside of metal (although some cover band guys I know go ampless on occasion for practical reasons, even though they don't like it very much).

 

[jvanoort]

So - this is metal and rock, and of course, pop.

I wonder if we would ever see this genres like jazz or blues. I can’t imagine a blues guitarist playing through an amp modeler. Nor a jazz cat.

Blues I don't know much about, but most jazz musicians I know are pretty open to new technology, sometimes even eager!

What about Metheny and his guitarsynth? Not quite an amp modeller I know, but still.

And I know Jens Larsen from NL, a well known jazz guitarist, uses Fractal and propagates ampless gigging:



Jens has some very interesting thoughts on this matter!

The above video also shows footage of Joe Pass who explain he uses a DI box to play through the house system (and had done so for years)!

John McLaughlin apparently is another example.

I suspect that many more artists have been playing ampless without us knowing and that in itself says something!

 

[Windreaper]

Personally I think YOU're the lucky one who gets to play real amps rather than a computer hooked up to a PA, but that's just me.

As for another poster's comment about spending money on a good PA rather than amps:

In MY world the only reason for going ampless would be less heavy lifting and a fast, hassle free setup. There are other reasons too of course but the main thing for MY needs would be less stuff to carry. A good PA optimized for ampless/IEM (rather than a cheap, rehearsal space vocal PA) would mean considerably more weight/space than the amps it's replacing. Besides, how often would you actually need that expensive PA you've spent your hard earned money on? Most venues already have permanently installed PAs and smaller venues (bars, coffee shops, etc.) with poor quality "vocal only" PAs (+maybe a DI'd keyboard in a pinch) would most likely not allow you to pull down their rig to make room for your ampless/IEM-optimised PA.

There are some types of smaller gigs where going ampless isn't really an option. At least not yet.

Even with gigs where it can be done without any practical issues I personally don't see many benefits except if:

1) You REALLY don't want to (or can't) carry a lot of heavy gear

2) You rely on a lot of different presets/tones (like a cover band) or presets triggered by a click track (like many metal bands do).

Triggered presets can of course be extremely convenient for SOME musical genres but only for genres where a click track is appropriate. Metal is one of them but for many other genres of music using a click track will completely suck the life out of the music and not really an option.

It's all about finding the right tools for the job. For some musicians going ampless is a great choice. Personally I don't like it very much. I prefer playing real amps on stage and so do every single musician I know outside of metal (although some cover band guys I know go ampless on occasion for practical reasons, even though they don't like it very much).

If you play Joe's Garage, and Joe insists you use the venue's crappy vocal PA, do what you must. If you bring your amp to a venue with an appropriate PA system, it's a preference.

Sure, everyone would prefer to play real amps. Yet they supply direct feeds and use IEMs so that the engineer has a fighting chance of dialing in a great mix. Not to mention they don't have to run their wedges/buds as loud. Hearing aids suck.

An ampless setup is lighter, more reliable, and translates to a cleaner sound in the room and monitors - recommended by nine out of ten sound engineers. Besides, if you play stages with subs on/under the deck, you're going to feel the low end.

 

[Admiral Akbar]

The best blues guitarist I've ever known uses a Line6 Helix.

There’s always exceptions.

 

[Admiral Akbar]

Blues I don't know much about, but most jazz musicians I know are pretty open to new technology, sometimes even eager!

What about Metheny and his guitarsynth? Not quite an amp modeller I know, but still.

And I know Jens Larsen from NL, a well known jazz guitarist, uses Fractal and propagates ampless gigging:



Jens has some very interesting thoughts on this matter!

The above video also shows footage of Joe Pass who explain he uses a DI box to play through the house system (and had done so for years)!

John McLaughlin apparently is another example.

I suspect that many more artists have been playing ampless without us knowing and that in itself says something!

Guitar synth is an affected sound, not a virtual one.

There’s some great benefits to ampless playing, but there are also benefits to using amps.

 

[Bunk McNulty]

Unfortunately for smaller bands like mine, the venues are a gamble. You never know what kind of PA they have, or if the sound guy even cares.

This is why we even though we are a stinky little bar band, we use our own PA and have our own sound person, who goes with us wherever we go (and gets paid the same as we do). Roger at work:

 

[richntiff]

The amount of comments here not understanding the difference between miming a performance a la Milli Vanilli and performing live to a click track and auxiliary backing tracks like synths is pretty funny.

Also funny that no one ever accused Geddy of miming when he loaded a bunch of dishwashers onstage in lieu of his amps: as soon as it’s a bunch of talented metal bands they’ve never heard of though, all bets are off

Bands of all genres have been performing live with a click and playback for decades.

It allows them to put on as sonically grand of a performance as possible, without the added overhead and visual clutter of additional musicians on stage.

It’s all about what’s best for their fans.

THIS x 1000.....

 

[NeonVomit]

There’s some great benefits to ampless playing, but there are also benefits to using amps.

Nobody's disputing how great amps sound.

The reality is though that the drawbacks outweigh the benefits when you're touring and trying to make money.

 

[Admiral Akbar]

Nobody's disputing how great amps sound.

The reality is though that the drawbacks outweigh the benefits when you're touring and trying to make money.

Agreed — ampless is cheaper, more convenient, and sounds better for certain styles of music where loud amps are counterproductive to live sound.

music which relies less on volume, but more on nuance - jazz, blues, etc - will keep the amps.

 

[sean_on_bass]

To me, especially for a guitarist, the amp is an extension of the instrument. There is interaction there with the touch of the player. Fortunately the guitarists i actual like still use amps, guys like Julian Lage. While the modeling tech has gotten extremely impressive at this point, it still doesn't feel like playing through a real tube amp. I can see why a big touring operation may or may not want that in lieu of convenience and predictability. I think also we are seeing a new generation of guitarists who literally learned from the ground up to play through their laptops so it's going to become more and more common as time goes on.

 

[jvanoort]

Agreed — ampless is cheaper, more convenient, and sounds better for certain styles of music where loud amps are counterproductive to live sound.

music which relies less on volume, but more on nuance - jazz, blues, etc - will keep the amps.

Have you actually watched that youtube clip of Jens Larsen? Ampless is not any less nuanced than playing with an amp, where did you get that idea? If anything it gives you more control over your sound, at least in the examples Jens discusses!
Would you say John Mclaughlins playing is not nuanced? He has been playing ampless for over 20 years!

Perfectly fine if you prefer amps for whatever reason, but in a discussion it helps if you distinguish facts from opinions (or even gut feelings).

 

[Windreaper]

Here is the original video the McLaughlin clip was from: People pay money to see him, so he wants to give his audience the best sound possible, which means reducing stage volume to make the engineer's job easier. Nuance at the source matters little if sound delivery to the audience is garbage. This is the mindset that escapes people with dimed Marshall stacks, Fender Twins etc.

 

[DaveParker39]

Agreed — ampless is cheaper, more convenient, and sounds better for certain styles of music where loud amps are counterproductive to live sound.

music which relies less on volume, but more on nuance - jazz, blues, etc - will keep the amps.

Ampless is practical for tons of styles of music. Not just "loud genres".

Plenty of jazz and blues players have embraced new tech through the years without losing "nuance".
Buddy Guy played a Cyber-Twin.
Allan Holdsworth's fleet of Yamaha MagicStomps.
Frank Gambale's MIDI Rig (Carvin/DV Mark).
Many late first-generation of electric blues players simply plugged into what was in front of them and found things they liked in the process.
Also, I'm not terribly sure where the idea that blues players "rely less on volume" comes from... that certainly doesn't compute with the rigs of the greats... Albert Collins' dimed Quad Reverbs, BB King's dimed Twin and Lab Series amps, SRV's enormous stacks of 200 watt tube amps, etc. etc.

 

[Admiral Akbar]

Ampless is practical for tons of styles of music. Not just "loud genres".

Plenty of jazz and blues players have embraced new tech through the years without losing "nuance".
Buddy Guy played a Cyber-Twin.
Allan Holdsworth's fleet of Yamaha MagicStomps.
Frank Gambale's MIDI Rig (Carvin/DV Mark).
Many late first-generation of electric blues players simply plugged into what was in front of them and found things they liked in the process.
Also, I'm not terribly sure where the idea that blues players "rely less on volume" comes from... that certainly doesn't compute with the rigs of the greats... Albert Collins' dimed Quad Reverbs, BB King's dimed Twin and Lab Series amps, SRV's enormous stacks of 200 watt tube amps, etc. etc.

Sure there are always exceptions to every rule especially in music. But outside of Guy, the other guitarists are more associated with fusion than jazz.

When you talk about Bb King, SRV, Albert Collins, Albert King, etc… their sound comes as much from their choice of amplification as it does their guitars, or dare I say it — their fingers.

 

[DaveParker39]

Sure there are always exceptions to every rule especially in music. But outside of Guy, the other guitarists are more associated with fusion than jazz.

When you talk about Bb King, SRV, Albert Collins, Albert King, etc… their sound comes as much from their choice of amplification as it does their guitars, or dare I say it — their fingers.

We all know "tone is in the fingers", that defeats the whole purpose of the discussion.

The point is that there is not a "nuance" that is lost in jazz and blues when plugged into ampless rigs/digital rigs any more than any other genre, and also there is not an element of "volume" in metal music that makes it more suited to ampless rigs than any other genre.

Great electric blues is, and always has been, loud as heck.

 

[Admiral Akbar]

We all know "tone is in the fingers", that defeats the whole purpose of the discussion.

The point is that there is not a "nuance" that is lost in jazz and blues when plugged into ampless rigs/digital rigs any more than any other genre, and also there is not an element of "volume" in metal music that makes it more suited to ampless rigs than any other genre.

Great electric blues is, and always has been, loud as heck.

But can you get the electric blues nuance in a modeled amp?

could a guy like SRV do what he did with an amp modeler—or did he need a real amp to mod and set to his liking.

even “bluesy” guys like Eric Johnson, Joe Bonamassa - wouldn’t they be losing part of their sound by playing through digital modelers?

Let’s go to the world of synths : digital was supposed to replace (and almost did) analog synths in the late 80’s and early 90’s — but now here in the 2010’s and ‘20’s, it’s analog synths that are all the craze. Both the vintage ones and new analog.

Amps (and analog) will never go away.

 

[sean_on_bass]

One thing to consider is that these huge touring acts are not comparable to the average local guitarists. They are the exception rather than the rule. Hence how they handle things may not be comparable to the vast majority of hobby and even professional local players out there. How John M does his live sound is not an example i am going to follow when i play a jazz gig in the corner of a bar.

 

[sean_on_bass]

But can you get the electric blues nuance in a modeled amp?

could a guy like SRV do what he did with an amp modeler—or did he need a real amp to mod and set to his liking.

even “bluesy” guys like Eric Johnson, Joe Bonamassa - wouldn’t they be losing part of their sound by playing through digital modelers?

Let’s go to the world of synths : digital was supposed to replace (and almost did) analog synths in the late 80’s and early 90’s — but now here in the 2010’s and ‘20’s, it’s analog synths that are all the craze. Both the vintage ones and new analog.

Amps (and analog) will never go away.

It's because as much as people want to argue they are the same, playing through a modeler into a PA is never going to be the same experience as playing directly plugged into a Blues Junior. All in the way they feel, sound, and how the player interacts with them. Even the way the speakers push air, the sonic range of them, it's all very different. I've tried playing my guitar into my PC using Neural DSP plugins, and go back to the real amp every time.