Observations from a recent metal show

[mutethatguitar]

Yeah, miming to tracks is not new to live performances, as is lip syncing the age old art of audio slight of hand.

Playing skillfully for appearances sake, as opposed to actually performing?

From top o the pops “live” music video shoot, “concert”performances

One can never be entirely certain in this day and age what is really coming out if the PA.

remember Milli Vanilli?

Remember Nikki Six?

When I read years ago that he was bragging about taking bass lessons I was suspicious....

although he did sound much improved actually.

 

[_Some Dude]

Whoa! That was kinda mean . It ain’t the 810…it’s the volume they’re being run at. I could bring an 810 to a fairly small gig and run it as low as a B15 and it still sounds glorious. Bigger just plain sounds better for bass. But those days are behind me now. Do I miss having an 810? You bet! But I don’t miss the schlep.

This is what I like about an 810. Speakers are up higher, so I don't turn it up as loud.

 

[_Some Dude]

Never understood this argument. Would rather have a small null than people in the beam of the guitarist's 4x12 getting their heads lopped off, but that's just me. IME, people will move to where the sound is tolerable.

I would rather the guitarist learn how to dial in their amp.

 

[_Some Dude]

This young up and coming band uses no amps, no pedals, and runs everything though digital processors that are electronically controlled throughout the performance as well.



Bunch of mimes!

If I had Metallica levels of money, I'd also pay people to make me sound good.

If I remember correctly, they never made the change because it sounded better or because it was cheaper, they did it because it was more consistent. The A rig would sound identical to the B rig and C rig. For the average musician with a single rig I don't think these are practical considerations.

 

[_Some Dude]

I play in a bunch of metal bands. It's all about logistics. Everyone is stripping down their setup not because they don't LIKE the sound and feel of real amps, but instead trying to keep costs under control. So DI + IEM is where it's at. Save your settings on the first show, tweak them each subsequent show, and let the FOH guy do his thing according to the venue/PA available.

Dragging heavy amps and monitors around = more crew members needed, more people to pay and transport. If you can get a result almost as good as the real thing but with a fraction of the hassle and expense, it only makes sense to do it. It's not the 80's anymore. We all gotta do what we gotta do in order to survive.

Almost all the guitarists I play with have Kemper/Fracta/Quad Cortex. I'm using my Boss GT1B more and more, and my next investment will probably be upgrading it to a GT1000 Core to run through a really quality DI box, or even a Quad Cortex as well. It just makes life easier (and much, MUCH cheaper) for everyone involved.

Agreed.

I think the logistics are different for a touring band than a local player who's transporting their own gear in their own vehicle, or carrying it on the bus/subway.

I've periodically considered getting an AxeFX, but it's not really practical for a guy like me. By the time I adapted it to the various situations I find myself in it'd cheaper and easier to buy a head with a DI and put it on a cab.

 

[scuzzy]

It's because as much as people want to argue they are the same, playing through a modeler into a PA is never going to be the same experience as playing directly plugged into a Blues Junior. All in the way they feel, sound, and how the player interacts with them. Even the way the speakers push air, the sonic range of them, it's all very different. I've tried playing my guitar into my PC using Neural DSP plugins, and go back to the real amp every time.

If you are using iem's and have the amp in an iso-booth, would you be able to tell the difference between the amp and processor?

Seriously asking, not trying to pick a fight.

 

[sean_on_bass]

If you are using iem's and have the amp in an iso-booth, would you be able to tell the difference between the amp and processor?

Seriously asking, not trying to pick a fight.

No worries, its a good question. Honestly i can't really say because i don't play in situations that use IEM's. I'm a local jazz musician playing in small rooms around town. But if i simply had to guess, the answer would be yes.

 

[scuzzy]

No worries, its a good question. Honestly i can't really say because i don't play in situations that use IEM's. I'm a local jazz musician playing in small rooms around town. But if i simply had to guess, the answer would be yes.

I'm a recent adopter of iem's. It has never been better than the best day with an amp, but it's consistently good, and I've had some utterly terrible occasions with an amp due to room acoustics.

It's all a trade-off I suppose.

 

[Windreaper]

I would rather the guitarist learn how to dial in their amp.

Cannot dial out poor dispersion characteristics of guitar cabs. If PA coverage next to stage is a concern, a front fill is going to produce much more consistent results.

 

[DaveParker39]

But can you get the electric blues nuance in a modeled amp?

could a guy like SRV do what he did with an amp modeler—or did he need a real amp to mod and set to his liking.

even “bluesy” guys like Eric Johnson, Joe Bonamassa - wouldn’t they be losing part of their sound by playing through digital modelers?

Let’s go to the world of synths : digital was supposed to replace (and almost did) analog synths in the late 80’s and early 90’s — but now here in the 2010’s and ‘20’s, it’s analog synths that are all the craze. Both the vintage ones and new analog.

Amps (and analog) will never go away.

They would 100% still sound like themselves, at least no LESS than, say, Dave Murray of Iron Maiden or James Hetfield of Metallica would.
That which is "lost" is no more or less lost dependent on genre.
We have heard Eric Johnson play through digital modelers. He endorsed one.

 

[Admiral Akbar]

They would 100% still sound like themselves, at least no LESS than, say, Dave Murray of Iron Maiden or James Hetfield of Metallica would.
That which is "lost" is no more or less lost dependent on genre.
We have heard Eric Johnson play through digital modelers. He endorsed one.

Endorsing and using aren’t the same thing.

Yep - the beauty of all these players is they sound like themselves whatever they’re playing through.

If these virtual modelers were as good as what they’re trying to ape, every guitarist would have a “Dumble”, a “Jim Kelley”, a “1966 Fender Vibrolux”, a “Marshall stack” — but they don’t, because as great as these virtual modelers are, they’re NOT the real deal.

As a bassist, I’d have to have settings for “SVT”, “Aguilar db750”, “Sadowsky SA200”, “B-15N”, “Mesa 400”, “Reeves”, “Jule Monique”, “Noble”, “Walter Woods”, “GK 800”… and on and on.

My point is — if the sound and feel of these modelers were JUST AS GOOD as the real analog deal, EVERYONE would be using them, and there would be no need for traditional amps. And then, yes, amps would become “obsolete”.

 

[_Some Dude]

Cannot dial out poor dispersion characteristics of guitar cabs. If PA coverage next to stage is a concern, a front fill is going to produce much more consistent results.

If they the crowd was worried about poor dispersion and consistent results they wouldn’t be at a metal gig.

IMO.

 

[DaveParker39]

My point is — if the sound and feel of these modelers were JUST AS GOOD as the real analog deal, EVERYONE would be using them, and there would be no need for traditional amps. And then, yes, amps would become “obsolete”.

I think it's less about sound or feel, and more about hearing with one's eyes and liking gear.

(Coming from someone with a 1967 Super Reverb)

 

[Admiral Akbar]

I think it's less about sound or feel, and more about hearing with one's eyes and liking gear.

(Coming from someone with a 1967 Super Reverb)

I think most people in the audience don’t give a hoot about the gear being played, but in the feel of the music and whether it’s moving them or not. They don’t care if the artist is playing through a Dumble or a state-of-the-art digital wireless/ampless setup.

The artist, however, needs to be inspired by whatever gear s/he is using:

If the artist is a metal band on tour and saves a ton of money and gets good sound by going ampless, then that’s great for them.

If the artist happens to be a guitar virtuoso like Jim Campilongo, he needs to hear (and feel) his guitars through any of his 1965-7 Fender Princeton Reverbs (all modded hot, and of course with REAL spring reverb).

As excited and inspired as the OP is post-concert, I don’t think it’s wise to make blanket statements such as the future of music is ampless.

Virtual modeling is an incredible tool for the musician. But real amplification is going NOWHERE.

 

[TyBo]

I think it's less about sound or feel, and more about hearing with one's eyes and liking gear.

(Coming from someone with a 1967 Super Reverb)

A perennial debate. I do think it's about sound and feel - I have an HX Stomp, which is not a bad piece of equipment, not top of the line at this stage, but representative. For sound and feel, it's okay ... but I find I prefer the guitar plugged straight into an amp, feels sort of dampened through the Stomp or through effects. Got a few old Gibson amps that definitely can't be properly emulated there, no such amp models in the unit, and some of those funky, rat's nest Gibson electronics circuits just have their own fat feel. A bit like a tweed Deluxe, but their own thing. Interestingly, the old EH150/185 "Charlie Christian" amps can give a wicked Neil Young type distortion when cranked - ain't never got that from any digital source, kind comes in waves, with variations as it sustains.

Of course the problem with such amps is they're even older than I am, and ... they wear out, parts go bad, which hopefully can be replaced, and ... well, I can relate. So, not all that practical for daily use. Anyway, while modeling amps can be pretty good, I certainly hear and feel some difference. With bass it's less of an issue, not looking for that same old amp sound, just good translation of what my fingers are doing on the strings without coloration is fine. It's less about note by note expression, more about just a good consistent sound.

I think the Jens Larsen video is a good presentation - the modeling stuff is good for gigs where an amp would have to be miked and amplified itself, often by a sound tech with an entirely different set of ears than those of an old jazz/blues sensibility. He makes a good point there. It's not that the amps are less good, just more difficult in practice in such situations. I'm ordinarily just playing small scale anyway, so not normally a concern personally.

I do find that Quilter amps are a reasonable compromise, and basically get the job done. I might sometimes prefer a hot tweed amp ... but not always, and not to necessarily to take out. And of course I think the Quilter Bass Block is pretty well known here. Their amps give good sound. That's my no-tube wheelhouse, glad those exist!

 

[JimmyM]

I think most people in the audience don’t give a hoot about the gear being played, but in the feel of the music and whether it’s moving them or not. They don’t care if the artist is playing through a Dumble or a state-of-the-art digital wireless/ampless setup.

The artist, however, needs to be inspired by whatever gear s/he is using:

If the artist is a metal band on tour and saves a ton of money and gets good sound by going ampless, then that’s great for them.

If the artist happens to be a guitar virtuoso like Jim Campilongo, he needs to hear (and feel) his guitars through any of his 1965-7 Fender Princeton Reverbs (all modded hot, and of course with REAL spring reverb).

As excited and inspired as the OP is post-concert, I don’t think it’s wise to make blanket statements such as the future of music is ampless.

Virtual modeling is an incredible tool for the musician. But real amplification is going NOWHERE.

Yeah, since when should I have to sacrifice what makes me and my bands comfortable and play our best? I already outlined my reasons earlier in the thread…that should have ended the discussion right then and there. But noooooooo!



Seriously, this thread is in danger of turning into ass. Yeah sure, be excited that digital modeling doesn’t suck anymore. But if it was the future of all shows, it would have already happened. It’s not like ampless stages haven’t been around for 40 years or more.

 

[Windreaper]

Yeah, since when should I have to sacrifice what makes me and my bands comfortable and play our best? I already outlined my reasons earlier in the thread…that should have ended the discussion right then and there. But noooooooo!



Seriously, this thread is in danger of turning into ass. Yeah sure, be excited that digital modeling doesn’t suck anymore. But if it was the future of all shows, it would have already happened. It’s not like ampless stages haven’t been around for 40 years or more.

We're currently looking at musicians who have transitioned to using modelers. People for whom playing with headphones using modelers or plugins has been the norm are still mostly in their 20s. I suspect the ratio is going to shift heavily in the coming years.

 

[JimmyM]

We're currently looking at musicians who have transitioned to using modelers. People for whom playing with headphones using modelers or plugins has been the norm are still mostly in their 20s. I suspect the ratio is going to shift heavily in the coming years.

Wow, you really believe that, huh? You think your generation invented ampless gigging and using headphones or IEMs? Lol!

 

[_Some Dude]

AxeFX was supposed to kill off tube amps 17 years ago.

In 2023 Fractal is making a load box for tube amps.

 

[Windreaper]

Wow, you really believe that, huh? You think your generation invented ampless gigging and using headphones or IEMs? Lol!

"My generation", whatever you think it is, didn't invent backing tracks either, the Who already did that in the 70s (though Pete Townshend might still have his hearing had they gone ampless...). My point is that you can buy a modeling floorboard or combo amp for ~500 and make little to no compromise in sound quality compared to a tube amp (tons of blind tests on Youtube). That wasn't the case 10+ years ago.