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Observations from a recent metal show

#101
jvanoort said:
I don't mind if a performance sounds like the recording, but it should not be the goal.

That may be true for other people, I don't know. But as for me: I want a live performance to add something to the recording, not sound like one! I always hope for excitement, some impro, even if only extending the solos or endings.

One of the reasons I love going to jazz concerts!
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Yeah, me to. The kinds of music I like are generally played on acoustic instruments in the same room at the the same time, with improvisation, and the recordings tend to be produced to sound like that, even if there are overdubs.

But that's not true for many pop/rock/R&B genres and hasn't been for a long time. I'm not saying I prefer hearing backing tracks at concerts, just saying that many people buying concert tickets for would be disappointed if the performance didn't sound like the record.

You can argue about artistic merit (I'm not here to cast aspersions), but then you're putting down entire genres. (Do I like pop/rock/metal? No. Does this mean they're objectively bad? Also no.)

For people who like that kind of thing, that's the kind of thing they like. Nothing wrong with giving the holder of a 3-figure-priced concert ticket what they paid for.
 
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#102
scuzzy said:
this venue was seemingly designed around no backline. The stage was not deep and having an 8x10 sitting behind would be possible, but would really cramp things up there.

There was a small line array that pointed straight down at the "pit" and there were front facing and side facing line arrays at the edge of the stage, hanging from rafters. Sound coverage was very good, and boom was pretty minimal considering it was a steel and concrete rectangular shaped box of a room. The sound guys did a really solid job, and the space was well thought out.
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You're lucky then! Most of us barroom warriors don't have this luxury.
 
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#104
fishdude101101 said:
Cutting cost and easing logistics are the big things. Even the bands mentioned in the original post aren't big budget acts and need to control costs.

When making a choice between two of anything, amp vs no amp, bass vs another, one car vs another, which would you chose if both were free, as in money and effort, to you?
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You missed my point. What a touring band does in a venue with a good PA is one thing; what I can do in Joey's Bar and Grill, with a PA consisting of two barely working Speakers-on-a-stick and a Mackie "mixer" (punctuation mine) from the late '80s is another.
 
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#105
Windreaper said:
Never understood this argument. Would rather have a small null than people in the beam of the guitarist's 4x12 getting their heads lopped off, but that's just me. IME, people will move to where the sound is tolerable.
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What determines where people stand has more to do with 1) proximity to bar 2) Where their friends are, 3) and where there's actual space to stand than "optimum sound quality."

Some of you have never played crappy bar gigs, and it shows.
 
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#106
I know we're talking about heavy metal rock and roll here, but even so I'll recount a personal experience:

I started out like so many kids do, in the junior high school band, then transitioned my listening and playing interests to rock and roll. I had more than a decade of immersion in that world, including all the amp-wars, on-stage volume wars, ringing ears, complaining audiences, etc., etc., etc. This was long before the concept of in-ear monitoring and the quiet stage for loud music. As I moved toward more jazz-oriented forms, it was still the early 80s and all the bands were LOUD LOUD LOUD. Everyone was miked. Everything was louder, higher, faster (I was in North Texas; the NTSU mentality was dominant).

Then I got a gig outdoors. Older music (we called it Dixieland back then; today I call it trad). NO ELECTRICITY. Bass? Tuba. Piano? nah. Horns and drums playing naturally. Honest to God, I was about 30 and I think this was the first gig I had ever played in my life without amplification. It totally turned my head around, to be playing music completely naturally, balancing dynamics on the fly, just musicians doing what musicians do. And that has been my preferred mode of performance in the 30 or so years since - even though obviously most performances aren't like that.

Now heavy metal and unamplified don't go together, but I'd urge anyone who is tired of volume wars to genre-hop a bit and spend some time playing music that is by its nature unamplified. You might find out you really really dig that way of playing. I'm not going to suggest any particular genre; you'll have to figure out on your own where you want to go with that; but I'd suggest you might learn some things that you weren't prepared for.
 
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#107
Danny O Danny said:
Going ampless, and adding supplemental tracks, are two entirely different things. They can work well together but doing one does not necessitate the other. I don't know why some folks conflate them....I recall concerts back in the 80's where heavy metal bands would have a musician off on the side of the stage adding supplemental keyboards or guitar or vocal harmonies.
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I remember that too. Before Paul Stanley started lip synching ;), Kiss had Gary Corbett (RIP) playing keyboards and singing backups off to the side of the stage. Black Sabbath did this too on their last tour.
 
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#110
AndyLES said:
You missed my point. What a touring band does in a venue with a good PA is one thing; what I can do in Joey's Bar and Grill, with a PA consisting of two barely working Speakers-on-a-stick and a Mackie "mixer" (punctuation mine) from the late '80s is another.
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Doesn't have to be so. In my experience, people are happy spending thousands of dollars on their personal rigs, but cheap out on the PA. Surely Joey's Bar and Grill lets you use your own equipment?

Toured small venues in the 2000s with a pair of RCF subs and tops, and an analog mixer with effects, good for anything <200 cap. Even easier these days with affordable digital desks. Sure, the PA adds some bulk, but it's still going to be quieter and sound better than amps in small spaces (only need to worry about drums bleeding into vocal mics).
 
#111
With the amount of band trailers being stolen by thieves, it's no suprise. Not bringing a backline makes load in and out easier. If you trailer gets jacked you aren't out as much either. Most bands I know do not carry around backlines anymore. Almost all of them are metal.
 
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#113
Windreaper said:
Doesn't have to be so. In my experience, people are happy spending thousands of dollars on their personal rigs, but cheap out on the PA. Surely Joey's Bar and Grill lets you use your own equipment?
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No they don't - next question.

The bars around me want minimal gear and hassle, because otherwise you're disturbing their dinner service, where the real money is made.

Again, does anyone here actually gig in the REAL world?!
 
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#115
baxter_x said:
Very interesting question actually. Because I agree some inputs are a bit weird. Especially about those using their 810 cabs in venues where it's totally overkill.
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I will say that in 45 years of going to bars, restaurants, nightclubs, I don't think I have witnessed a single incident of a band not playing loud enough.

I get it that it feels cool to bring stadium level PA to a 1200 sq ft bar with 30 patrons, but it's still stupid.
 
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#116
I'm no old fart (yet...), but I've always run into issues with adoption of ampless or in-ears from bandmates of similar age. Drummers sort of have a case, as an electronic set is a pretty different feel from an acoustic set. The only problem with it is having to go back to regular amps and monitors again.

Latency is possibly a factor when it comes to stage monitoring too, but I haven't done any scientific testing on such a thing myself.
 
#117
And FTR, my band does bring PA for some gigs - but all the venues like to see is the aforementioned speakers on sticks, with maybe a sub. We also run a small powered monitor for the lead vocalist. I run the mixer from the stage (I use either a long cable or a cheap wireless to come out and listen to the sound to make any small adjustments as needed).

But front fills, delays, etc., the type of stuff that makes ampless+IEM gigs work optimally, are simply not practical when you're playing in a caddy corner, for instance. If YOU can bring all that gear, and can afford a soundman to go with it, fantastic! Consider yourself lucky.

But I and many others don't have that luxury, and thus most of our band sound has to come from the backline itself. Sorry if this bothers everyone, but circumstances dictate actions, like it or not.

Also, while we're on the subject, I'm not sure I like the current trend of "pristine, like the record" live gigs anyway. Stage wash, monitor wash, etc. do technically cause phasing issues, resonances, mic bleed, etc., but it's those sonic imperfections that made live shows sound cool, and "live." If I want "pristine" tone, I'll stay home and listen to the album.
 
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#118
baxter_x said:
IMO the main problem is those dudes willing to use their huge amount of pedals and stuff without mastering it.
I'm of those who refuse to use ANY extra gear if it's not justifed. I end up with a simple rig: Bass, amp and cab. And that's it.
And my tone is good and eases things for the soundman whatever the venue. I also check before the show what cab I should bring. If it's a little/mid venue, I don't even think about bringing my 810. I'll use my 212.

Tone/sound issues onstage a very related to brainless/incompetent musicians IMO and IME.
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Let me bring forth the guy, who I always thought had the best tone out of everybody.
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This is Rinus Gerritsen of Golden Earring playing his twin neck longhorn bass. Note that the only controls on that said bass are a volume and tone and a neck selector. He NEVER switches pickups, he dialled in the sound he wanted and stuck with that come hell or high water. Note also that he uses the pickups in his bass in a stereo set up, the humbuckers for the low end and the single coils as tweeters.

Rinus had been a long term Peavey endorser since those were the only amps without that "kazoo" overdrive sound. Although recently, he switched to using Ampeg Combos and Fractal for his overdrive.

As for how that set up sounds...

Here he is with the Peavey amps.


And this is him using his current set up.
 
#119
AndyLES said:
And FTR, my band does bring PA for some gigs - but all the venues like to see is the aforementioned speakers on sticks, with maybe a sub. We also run a small powered monitor for the lead vocalist. I run the mixer from the stage (I use either a long cable or a cheap wireless to come out and listen to the sound to make any small adjustments as needed).

But front fills, delays, etc., the type of stuff that makes ampless+IEM gigs work optimally, are simply not practical when you're playing in a caddy corner, for instance. If YOU can bring all that gear, and can afford a soundman to go with it, fantastic! Consider yourself lucky.

But I and many others don't have that luxury, and thus most of our band sound has to come from the backline itself. Sorry if this bothers everyone, but circumstances dictate actions, like it or not.

Also, while we're on the subject, I'm not sure I like the current trend of "pristine, like the record" live gigs anyway. Stage wash, monitor wash, etc. do technically cause phasing issues, resonances, mic bleed, etc., but it's those sonic imperfections that made live shows sound cool, and "live." If I want "pristine" tone, I'll stay home and listen to the album.
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i agree with you. some gigs would be ridiculous to have or expect that sort of set-up. But it works really well in some others gigs. different strokes and all. We all play very different venues.

I have done both types of gigs, and respect both.
 

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