Official Zon Club Part 2

[Vic]

I, for one, never understood the bias towards a non-lined fretless board. I'm all for anything that will help me sound better. I know Angus was kidding, but I've heard arguments about this.

For me, it's both aesthetics as well as functional, but I'm not categorically against them. I think they're a great thing for beginners, but, just as with fretted instruments, you should (eventually) be able to play without looking at your hands, final intonation should always be by ear, and IMHO, line material in the board just adds risk of fingerboard level inconsistency eventually.

Not looking at your hands is really useful for reading charts if you need to, or simply putting on a better visual performance on stage if you aren't using charts. Also, on intonation, the lines should just be there to help you build muscle memory for getting "generally" to a note (especially in the upper registers where it even matters how much your finger squishes and/or rolls slightly more or less.)

Back in the 80's I was doing a lot more fretless electric (jazz combo, fusion, etc.), and I only had lines for a while because I had a bass defretted... however, once I got comfy on it, I was all about losing those lines on its replacement... and never missed them. The side dots were all I ever occasionally needed at that point.

IMHO/IME

 

[Andy Brown]

I am shallow and i think unlined boards look cooler.

Also, they make the player look badass.

Ok, I'm really shallow.

So when is the Vinny coming in?

 

[fretless4string]

Lines?

I guess nobody is perfect.

Edgar Meyer has position markers on his acoustic bass!

 

[Andy Brown]

Edgar Meyer has position markers on his acoustic bass!

Hi Alastair! How are you enjoying the TJ?

 

[Mike Dimin]

Edgar Meyer has position markers on his acoustic bass!

I was going to mention that, as well

 

[Mike Dimin]

For me, it's both aesthetics

yes

as well as functional,

yeah, not really

but I'm not categorically against them. I think they're a great thing for beginners, but, just as with fretted instruments, you should (eventually) be able to play without looking at your hands,

why, who cares

final intonation should always be by ear,

YES, lined or unlined!

and IMHO, line material in the board just adds risk of fingerboard level inconsistency eventually.

Do you REALLY believe that it is a real issue?

Not looking at your hands is really useful for reading charts if you need to,

Yup

or simply putting on a better visual performance on stage if you aren't using charts.

Sorry dude, they're wathcing the guitar player, not you

Also, on intonation, the lines should just be there to help you build muscle memory for getting "generally" to a note (especially in the upper registers where it even matters how much your finger squishes and/or rolls slightly more or less.)

Back in the 80's I was doing a lot more fretless electric (jazz combo, fusion, etc.), and I only had lines for a while because I had a bass defretted... however, once I got comfy on it, I was all about losing those lines on its replacement... and never missed them. The side dots were all I ever occasionally needed at that point.

IMHO/IME

Lined or unlined doesn't matter. If you need it to say "Yeah, my fretless has no lines!" well then by all means get an unlined fretless. Personally, I could care less. I have owned both. I always ended up playing the bass that felt and sounded best regardless of fret lines. It just so happens that the two best fretless basses I have ever owned both had lines. One was a very old, pre "buzz" Pedulla (serial number 363) and my MTD Vector Prototype

Mike

(sorry Vic, just feeling a little snarky today)

 

[ehque]

So when is the Vinny coming in?

I have no idea, but seeing how things are going, I think it's only going to be done after namm, even though he tried to get it to me as a Christmas present.

 

[sundaybender]

Sorry dude, they're wathcing the guitar player, not you

It's funny because it's true!

 

[SanDiegoHarry]

For me, it's both aesthetics as well as functional, but I'm not categorically against them. I think they're a great thing for beginners, but, just as with fretted instruments, you should (eventually) be able to play without looking at your hands, final intonation should always be by ear, and IMHO, line material in the board just adds risk of fingerboard level inconsistency eventually.

Not looking at your hands is really useful for reading charts if you need to, or simply putting on a better visual performance on stage if you aren't using charts. Also, on intonation, the lines should just be there to help you build muscle memory for getting "generally" to a note (especially in the upper registers where it even matters how much your finger squishes and/or rolls slightly more or less.)

Back in the 80's I was doing a lot more fretless electric (jazz combo, fusion, etc.), and I only had lines for a while because I had a bass defretted... however, once I got comfy on it, I was all about losing those lines on its replacement... and never missed them. The side dots were all I ever occasionally needed at that point.

IMHO/IME

Well said - that sums up my take. If an upright player doesn't need lines, why do I?

 

[Mike Dimin]

Well said - that sums up my take. If an upright player doesn't need lines, why do I?

of course, except for Edgar Meyer, you mean

 

[Angus]

Wow, this devolved very quickly. I don't think "X player played with lines!" or "but Y players don't use em!" form very nuanced arguments...yet it always seems to lead there. Although I wouldn't say "not really" or "who cares" are very nuanced, ether.

I stemmed from a joke, but I think the main point is that absolutely nobody cares. People have bad intonation no matter what they play- either because they rely too much on the lines on the fretless (which usually are not really in tune), or they can't find the right place on an unlined board. The solution is the same in both cases: trains your ears better and listen.

I don't happen to like lined boards because I've personally seen it result in a longer span of visual dependence, but in the end they both have the same pitfalls for different reasons.

And nobody really cares. I just joke because I can.

I have no idea, but seeing how things are going, I think it's only going to be done after namm, even though he tried to get it to me as a Christmas present.

If it's not in your hands now, it won't be before NAMM. That's pretty much true for any builder who don't have their NAMM basses done by now.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

I wonder how often Gary Willis, Edgar Meyer, Chick Corea, or Andre Segovia felt ashamed that they never were professional enough to stop looking at their hands when playing. I'm sure they lost a lot of gigs because of it.

Oh wait....

If the note comes out right, the note comes out right. Doesn't matter if you use your ears, eyes, fingers, or nose to get it. Adding an addition challenge by taking away one of your senses won't make the music sound any better. And Mike's right- they ain't looking at the bassist

 

[SanDiegoHarry]

I wonder how often Gary Willis, Edgar Meyer, Chick Corea, or Andre Segovia felt ashamed that they never were professional enough to stop looking at their hands when playing. I'm sure they lost a lot of gigs because of it.

Oh wait....

If the note comes out right, the note comes out right. Doesn't matter if you use your ears, eyes, fingers, or nose to get it. Adding an addition challenge by taking away one of your senses won't make the music sound any better. And Mike's right- they ain't looking at the bassist

Hey, I'd never condemn a player for using lines, looking at his hands or doing whatever it took to sound good - I just wasn't taught that way and so, when I have taught others, I didn't teach that way. Along with my ears, my familiarity with my instrument and, of course, side dots are *plenty* for me.

And what does this have to do with Zons, anyway? Is it that they don't usually make them with lines...?

 

[Mike Dimin]

Hey, I'd never condemn a player for using lines, looking at his hands or doing whatever it took to sound good - I just wasn't taught that way and so, when I have taught others, I didn't teach that way. Along with my ears, my familiarity with my instrument and, of course, side dots are *plenty* for me.

And what does this have to do with Zons, anyway? Is it that they don't usually make them with lines...?

We were all taught, back in the old days, that looking at the fretboard was a no-no. I think, over time, that has changed. The funny thing is that I think that I am looking but when I see video of me playing, I am rarely looking

 

[Angus]

How has that changed? It's true of any instrument- ideally, you shouldn't be gawking at your hands (although of course it's fine to look to see where you are going from time to time).

 

[spade2you]

I have actually seen lines that expanded on a bass and one where they really contracted, so it's possible. Frequent? Probably not.

My stance has always been that if the true pitch isn't exactly where the line is, why even have them? I find them more distracting than helpful.

 

[Angus]

Same.

But it is of no actual interest to me if strangers have/want them.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

My stance has always been that if the true pitch isn't exactly where the line is, why even have them? I find them more distracting than helpful.

Frets have the same issue with not providing perfect intonation- I certainly wouldn't get rid of my fretted basses just because they're a tiny bit off Also, lines are as accurate/inaccurate as side dots anyways, and a line will give a much better reference than no line, even if the upper and lower extremities of the fingerboard may have the lines be a tiny bit different than the ideal intonation point.

Not there's anything wrong with unlined- just pointing out that the issues most people find with lined basses usually aren't real problems.

 

[Danny Fox]

I should have just mentioned the hipshots and fingerboard finish, then i wouldnt have unleashed this conversation

 

[fretless4string]

Hi Alastair! How are you enjoying the TJ?

I thought that I would never play my Sonus 4 string fretless again but after a few days I found I was playing them about equally.