Official Zon Club Part 2

[fretless4string]

I should have just mentioned the hipshots and fingerboard finish, then i wouldnt have unleashed this conversation

Right! From a practical standpoint, I have been on stage with a fretless bass and lost my monitor. At that point I was really glad to have some lines.

 

[Vic]

Frets have the same issue with not providing perfect intonation- I certainly wouldn't get rid of my fretted basses just because they're a tiny bit off Also, lines are as accurate/inaccurate as side dots anyways, and a line will give a much better reference than no line, even if the upper and lower extremities of the fingerboard may have the lines be a tiny bit different than the ideal intonation point.

Not there's anything wrong with unlined- just pointing out that the issues most people find with lined basses usually aren't real problems.

Not sure I get your drift... you seem to be defending lines, but you note they (and side dots for that matter) are imperfect just like frets (which I agree with), but that does more to support the argument to get away from using them and just use your ears. Did I misread you?

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Not sure I get your drift... you seem to be defending lines, but you note they (and side dots for that matter) are imperfect just like frets (which I agree with), but that does more to support the argument to get away from using them and just use your ears. Did I misread you?

An imperfect aid is still an aid. If we were dismiss a possible aid due to possible imperfection, you'd never use your ears, as all sorts of things in your environment can affect their pitch detection. You'll never use just your ears to play fretless- you use your fingers. Ears only tell you when you're on or off after the fact. The goal is to get your fingers in the right place. Using visual aid can help put your fingers in the right place before hitting an off note, whether you use dots, lines, or both. The most ears can do is tell you when you need to keep your hand still or adjust it. Visual aids can do that as well, and can even do it prior to hitting a clam. I'd never advise someone to use just their eyes to play fretless, so I'd certainly never advise someone to use just their ears. You're worse off either way then.

 

[Vic]

An imperfect aid is still an aid...

I'd never advise someone to use just their eyes to play fretless, so I'd certainly never advise someone to use just their ears. You're worse off either way then.

Ok, I think I get your drift, but the problem with relying on that much of a visual aid is if you find yourself reading charts, in a dark place, etc... you just really rarely get a chance to really look at your hands. IMHO, that's where muscle memory comes in.

You watch some of the best fretless players out there and I seriously think having lines on the board would do more to confuse than help. By the time you get your muscle memory and ear training where it should be, I just don't think fret lines are useful anymore. Side dots, maybe, but lines for every note... at least I personally don't think so.

Upright players, same deal... they start off with that pinstripe tape, but then they peel it off and never use it again once they get "good enough". What about violin players? Can you you even imagine trying to mark that stuff off?

FWIW, I guess.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

They actually do give violinists tape to start out with- at least they did with me. Lines aren't much help on it due to the way you view the instrument, which is also why they're not nearly as helpful on upright as they are on bass, as on those instrument you're looking across a fingerboard depth-wise.

What situations dictate where you can use your eyes will be different for every player. As I pointed out, many (if not most) of the greatest musicians in the world look at their hands fairly if not very often. Gigs requiring lots of sight-reading won't allow you that much opportunity. Other gigs won't allow you much time or opportunity to correct your intonation by ear either. Lots of other times you can't rely on your ears- if your monitoring is bad, if your ears lose some pitch detection due to a long night of loud music, etc. Even a cold can throw your ears off. Good thing about dots and lines is that they don't move

Frets are, in every sense of the word, lines across your bass. No different than fretlines; there's no reason to assume that frets would confuse a player any more than fretlines would. Also, all those top fretless players that use lines would likely eschew them if they thought they were making it worse for them. No offense or anything, but I'm not sure why you'd think they're hindering themselves.

 

[SanDiegoHarry]

So about those Zons....

 

[CH Design]

Does anyone know if there are any other VB5's out there with 19mm spacing at the bridge other than Mike Dimin's?

 

[Vic]

Gigs requiring lots of sight-reading won't allow you that much opportunity.

Right, so in designing a solution, you have to design for the worst case. Since you can't always be assured the luxury of looking at your hands, you have to learn to be proficient without doing so. IMHO, anyway.

Other gigs won't allow you much time or opportunity to correct your intonation by ear either. Lots of other times you can't rely on your ears- if your monitoring is bad, if your ears lose some pitch detection due to a long night of loud music, etc. Even a cold can throw your ears off.

Good point, but I would consider this an argument for frets, not lines, because even with lines, it's still pretty easy to "sound bad" if you aren't exactly on, and only the ability to hear yourself can fix that. If you get dirty looks from the singer, how will you know if it's a "sharp" or "flat" look?

If you think there's a potential you won't be able to hear yourself, then I'd suggest you always have a "plan B" for those cases, like an IEM system of some kind. They're very affordable, portable, and phenomenally effective.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Right, so in designing a solution, you have to design for the worst case. Since you can't always be assured the luxury of looking at your hands, you have to learn to be proficient without doing so. IMHO, anyway.

Good point, but I would consider this an argument for frets, not lines, because even with lines, it's still pretty easy to "sound bad" if you aren't exactly on, and only the ability to hear yourself can fix that. If you get dirty looks from the singer, how will you know if it's a "sharp" or "flat" look?

If you think there's a potential you won't be able to hear yourself, then I'd suggest you always have a "plan B" for those cases, like an IEM system of some kind. They're very affordable, portable, and phenomenally effective.

If you need to plan a worst case solution, it would need to cover both the potential of not being able to look at your hand or not being able to monitor/quickly adjust- a fretless would not be ideal for either situation. The point is there's no reason that a lined would be a detriment compared to an unlined in either situation- you can own and play a lined without ever looking at the board, and it still has the lines to look at in the situations when hearing is not ideal. Similar to your IEM suggestion, many players who need to look at their hands (classical guitarists for example) place their music stand to their side where they can view both their music and their hand.

 

[kesslari]

I think I've been over the "fretlines - menace or threat?" debate for about the last 10 threads about it.
Gary Willis likes lines, and is a phenomenal player with a great sense of humor.
nostatic here likes unlined, and he is a great player with a phenomenal sense of humor.
So like protons and electrons, it all balances out if you have enough space...

So about those Zons....

Yeah, about that. I just took a break and played my Sonus Special. What a great sounding, great playing, great looking instrument.

 

[Vic]

I think I've been over the "fretlines - menace or threat?" debate for about the last 10 threads about it...

Noted...

And again, finally, for the record, I'm not against lines. I just don't think they hold much benefit once you get proficient. Fully understood tho... just MHO.

...moving on now...

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Oh, and as I don't think I've ever posted it, this is the Zon I had for a short time:
Link Removed

The neck was a bit too uncomfortable as it was so flat, but it sounded great. Bought it for a steal, too.

 

[Andy Brown]

Does anyone know if there are any other VB5's out there with 19mm spacing at the bridge other than Mike Dimin's?

19mm is a custom option on the VB5. I would imagine not many exist.

 

[SanDiegoHarry]

Oh, and as I don't think I've ever posted it, this is the Zon I had for a short time:
Link Removed

The neck was a bit too uncomfortable as it was so flat, but it sounded great. Bought it for a steal, too.

Zon's are a very strange thing, used price-wise... The last one I bought on TB was a Sonus 5/1 in dead-mint condition with a gorgeous spalted maple top that I paid $1225 for... my 5/2 Special with flame walnut top cost me $1200 5 years ago - I don't know why these basses have such weak resale... perhaps they are a bit too odd for some guys...

 

[Mike Dimin]

19mm is a custom option on the VB5. I would imagine not many exist.

I'm just a weird guy

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Zon's are a very strange thing, used price-wise... The last one I bought on TB was a Sonus 5/1 in dead-mint condition with a gorgeous spalted maple top that I paid $1225 for... my 5/2 Special with flame walnut top cost me $1200 5 years ago - I don't know why these basses have such weak resale... perhaps they are a bit too odd for some guys...

My six was $1400, and it was in fantastic shape. Unfortunately, the TJs haven't fallen to such drastic lows on the used market yet....

 

[Angus]

There is very little logic to the used Zon market. I've kept a running track record for both various Sonus models and Legacy models- there is no consistent trend, other than $2000 is very high for a used Sonus of most types (and it doesn't sell well if above that) and Legacies are really only below $2000 is it's either a) in terrible shape, or b) one of the "standard" bolt-ons, which I think are actually the best models they made.

Anything with a deeper cutaway will sell for above $3000.

There is little sense in it- age doesn't even seem to correlate to selling price.

 

[fretless4string]

I had the opportunity to see Michael Manring's ZONs up close at a clinic this summer and the fingerboards on his hyperbasses do not seem to have the phenowood grain that my ZONs have. I just wondered if they are made the same way? Does anyone know?

 

[Danny Fox]

I had the opportunity to see Michael Manring's ZONs up close at a clinic this summer and the fingerboards on his hyperbasses do not seem to have the phenowood grain that my ZONs have. I just wondered if they are made the same way? Does anyone know?

Probably cant tell for the laquered finish on it, I know Joe no longer does this finish as standard. I've asked for it on my sonus for a bit of added growl.

 

[Vic]

@Zon resale...

Yeah, this is a REALLY strange beast... it's very definitely a buyer's market for used Zons. I used to think this was all about the controversy over non-adjustable necks, and in a few cases that got a lot of "buzz", relief that had changed to be less playable, which is then complicated by the fact the necks were non-adjustable.

Other than that, maybe the fact that the (now more typically popular) 19mm spacing is not as prevalent across models, and folks just tend to shy away from 17mm spacing? Keeping in mind that's also only on 5 string models?

Dunno, but it is strange, and especially any time I play mine, I'm surprised that they don't get more "airplay" around TB and bring down better money used.