OK, What's the Final Verdict on Class D?

[will33]

IMO, anything should be able to stand up to a couple years of hard gigging, even the cheapest stuff. If it can't, it should've never made it on the shelf for sale.

As far as not caring what the audience hears, that can be dangerous. I totally understand wanting yourself to sound the best you can and we do all this intricate bass tone stuff to please ourselves mostly but we're not the ones paying our bills, they are. Not to demean audiences in general too much, they certainly can tell the difference between what's good and what's not, they just don't know why. I can take all this technical stuff I've learned here and apply it and the 3 people in the audience who actually realize there is a bass player will say, man, you sound great, that's some mean bass playin', etc. but they still don't know why.

Face it, you're a bass player. Unless you look good, move around, get into it, have some stage antic or persona gimmick you're know for, you're a ways down the list, man.

Audiences pay attention to

1. Lead singer

2. Guitar player(s)

3. Horns if you have 'em, or the keys or the drummer.

4. Any other instrument that might be thrown into the mix.

5. Bass player but only if he sings at least backup. Otherwise you're number 6 behind the lights, the merchandise booth, or the hot chick begging for tips, unless you're a hot chick bass player, then you move up the list a notch or two. Maybe even close to the top if you're a hot chick bass player in a band with relatively unattractive guys.

 

[Queg]

I got a good deal on an Aggie DB750 because the owner wanted something lighter but still good (in his case an LMII). So yes, the class D amps are simply awesome.

 

[M0ses]

Expand that from bass player out to the whole audience in general and you're talking 99% don't know the difference. You could put a 4lb. switching power supply amp in a SVT headcase and it's the same to them.

While we're making up numbers, a good 75% of the audience can't even visually tell the difference between a bass and a guitar, and less of them even notice that I'm left handed.

If it really mattered what the audience thought, everyone would be playing pop and metal exclusively, on sparkly 24-string basses.

So yeah, you could leave out the bass entirely and give the guitarist an octave pedal, if all you're worried about is pleasing the audience and making a buck, but for me I want some juicy tonez!!!!!

 

[lowphatbass]

Face it, you're a bass player. Unless you look good, move around, get into it, have some stage antic or persona gimmick you're know for, you're a ways down the list, man.

Audiences pay attention to

1. Lead singer

2. Guitar player(s)

3. Horns if you have 'em, or the keys or the drummer.

4. Any other instrument that might be thrown into the mix.

5. Bass player but only if he sings at least backup. Otherwise you're number 6 behind the lights, the merchandise booth, or the hot chick begging for tips, unless you're a hot chick bass player, then you move up the list a notch or two. Maybe even close to the top if you're a hot chick bass player in a band with relatively unattractive guys.

That's some sad commentary man, I hope you're getting paid well.

 

[Eublet]

IMO, anything should be able to stand up to a couple years of hard gigging, even the cheapest stuff. If it can't, it should've never made it on the shelf for sale.

As far as not caring what the audience hears, that can be dangerous. I totally understand wanting yourself to sound the best you can and we do all this intricate bass tone stuff to please ourselves mostly but we're not the ones paying our bills, they are. Not to demean audiences in general too much, they certainly can tell the difference between what's good and what's not, they just don't know why. I can take all this technical stuff I've learned here and apply it and the 3 people in the audience who actually realize there is a bass player will say, man, you sound great, that's some mean bass playin', etc. but they still don't know why.

Face it, you're a bass player. Unless you look good, move around, get into it, have some stage antic or persona gimmick you're know for, you're a ways down the list, man.

Audiences pay attention to

1. Lead singer

2. Guitar player(s)

3. Horns if you have 'em, or the keys or the drummer.

4. Any other instrument that might be thrown into the mix.

5. Bass player but only if he sings at least backup. Otherwise you're number 6 behind the lights, the merchandise booth, or the hot chick begging for tips, unless you're a hot chick bass player, then you move up the list a notch or two. Maybe even close to the top if you're a hot chick bass player in a band with relatively unattractive guys.

This is true mostly in music forms where the bass takes a back seat. In rock music for example, folks go to a concert and the bass players part never stands out because he's not audible. They feel something in their chest but they just think the music is really loud. If the rock bassist takes a solo, it's usually very short and consists of nothing more than a bunch of really loud clackety noises mixed in with some heavy flanger or twah crap. Nothing melodic or creative. Non musicians leave unimpressed by it all.

However, take that same croud to a funk gig where the bass player take a slap solo that's full of melodic, harmonic and rhythmic ideas, and they usually leave thinking it was one of the most impressive parts of the whole show.

Bass players have only themselves to blame for not learning to go beyond the simplistic technical skills required of them "just to make the music work." I hate to say it, but most bass players are little more than a root and fifths for everyone else to be creative on top of.

 

[will33]

Not that sad really, mostly just commentary. You can be the baddest ass bassist there is and have shows where people love to see you but the key word there is "see". If you were to play those same people a recording of your music without them ever having seen you before or having the visual aspect to key off of, most of them wouldn't pick out the bass part, although they might like the overall sound and it might get their booty shakin' as well, they still don't know why, just that one is better than the other.


What this has to do with ClassD amps....I have no idea.

 

[will33]

This is true mostly in music forms where the bass takes a back seat. In rock music for example, folks go to a concert and the bass players part never stands out because he's not audible. They feel something in their chest but they just think the music is really loud. If the rock bassist takes a solo, it's usually very short and consists of nothing more than a bunch of really loud clackety noises mixed in with some heavy flanger or twah crap. Nothing melodic or creative. Non musicians leave unimpressed by it all.

However, take that same croud to a funk gig where the bass player take a slap solo that's full of melodic, harmonic and rhythmic ideas, and they usually leave thinking it was one of the most impressive parts of the whole show.

Bass players have only themselves to blame for not learning to go beyond the simplistic technical skills required of them "just to make the music work." I hate to say it, but most bass players are little more than a root and fifths for everyone else to be creative on top of.

Some good points there. Although I'd still have to say even at a funk gig, lead singer, drummer and horns would still best the best bassist. Of course, IMO.

 

[Pat C.]

...I'd never bring a switcher to a paid gig without having a proven non-switcher sitting in the truck as a standby.

I've seen this sentiment expressed by more than a few people, all of whom are users/proponents of Class D amps. And I actually agree.

But, being in the market for such an amp, I can't get my head around having to bring a backup for potentially unreliable technology. I've gigged for years with a tube preamp/class AB poweramp rack setup and never had an issue. Ever. I had a spare preamp in the rack (never had to use it), and I carried a spare DI, but no backup power. Maybe I got lucky? I just felt that the gear was quality and trusted it would work. How come not everyone feels that way about the new technology?

Having to drag the "big amp" out of the house, into the truck for each gig, only to leave it in the truck as a backup in case the micro head goes kaput (or should I drag the backup on stage so it's ready to go?), then bring both amps back in the house after the gig...just seems ridiculous. Right? Or am I the oddball here?

 

[bucephylus]

IMO, the Class D micros are the greatest technical development for bassists in the last ten years. IMO

Last weekend, I drove our classic rock band through a Shuttle 6 sitting on a 40 pound 2x12. The 6 is reputed to be "anemic," but I barely had the Master past 9 o'clock and was getting dirty looks from the sound guy while we're pushing 120 dB's out the front. BTW, two of the folks in the club stayed after while we were tearing down to gush about the bass playing. Bass players aren't in the background if you're doing your job.

I still have my TE Hexavalve and use it from time to time because I still like it and don't really care what anyone else thinks. But, the micros are the real deal and get the job done for many of the gigs out there now. IMO

 

[Bongolation]

OK, but to clarify, this is a purely a technical question. I don't care (for purposes of this discussion) about stage presence or bassists not getting any respect, etc.

I'm talking about any actual downsides, things that these amps do not do as well as conventional amps.

Are there any?

 

[will33]

I've always been an advocate of bringing a backup everything, just in case. But I'm also the guy who comes overprepared for everything. I got spare mics, cords, stands, even a pair of drumsticks for God's sake. All the amps I use were made before about '96 or so. I always bring a backup and I've never had to use it. I've actually gone so far as to do a couple gigs without a backup and guess what, I didn't need it then either.

I'm not the one to bash new technology, just saying it hasn't been around long enough to know if it's long-term reliable or not. There's no way of knowing, it's too new.

To me, something being new is a matter of several years, not single digit years, or months or weeks. Manufacturing processes get changed, upgraded, streamlined or whatever. Parts sources get changed due to reliability, cost or whatever. Bugs get worked out etc. There's a reason I'd buy a brand new 800rb sight unseen, won't do that with anything "new".

 

[bucephylus]

Not that sad really, mostly just commentary. You can be the baddest ass bassist there is and have shows where people love to see you but the key word there is "see". If you were to play those same people a recording of your music without them ever having seen you before or having the visual aspect to key off of, most of them wouldn't pick out the bass part, although they might like the overall sound and it might get their booty shakin' as well, they still don't know why, just that one is better than the other.


What this has to do with ClassD amps....I have no idea.

Well, I believe you started it. Ya dig the ditch, ya lay in it.

Don't think the bass is prominent? Fine. Try not playing. You'll see people heading for the doors. The drum back beat and the guitars, horns, whatever can NOT create a groove. The bass player does that and no one else. And that is pretty much true in every pop music genre I've ever played Jazz to Blues to Rock. If you're doing your job. IMO.

And, I'm doin' it lately through a Class D amp.

 

[bucephylus]

OK, but to clarify, this is a purely a technical question. I don't care (for purposes of this discussion) about stage presence or bassists not getting any respect, etc.

I'm talking about any actual downsides, things that these amps do not do as well as conventional amps.

Are there any?

You will need to evaluate several of the amps with your instrument and cab(s) to figure what works. The Shuttle for example is a little more austere in its tone than the LM with flat settings. The 6 is not optimal for passive instruments. GB fixed that in the Max series etc etc. There are voluminous threads on this board you would need to pick through. IMO, it comes down to the synergy of your particular stuff, but I'd be amazed if one of the ones out there would not work for you.

 

[JimmyM]

I'm not the one to bash new technology, just saying it hasn't been around long enough to know if it's long-term reliable or not. There's no way of knowing, it's too new.

i sure see a lot of walter woods class d bass amps from the 80's still in operation. btw, thanks for the irrelevant self-loathing.

 

[will33]

Don't think the bass is prominent? Fine. Try not playing. You'll see people heading for the doors.

Of course you will, but they won't go home telling all their friends about the lack of a bass player, they'll go home telling all their friends the band sucked.


Anyway, enough of the internet war stuff, the OP's quesiton was about Class D amps, was kind of stupid of me to take it off track in the first place.


Geez, people get offended easily around here, whaddaya closet guitards or something?

 

[SpamBot]

The drum back beat and the guitars, horns, whatever can NOT create a groove.

Completely wrong IMO. "Groove" is not a quality bassists can claim sole dominance of.

 

[seamonkey]

Best thing about class-d amps is their watts are the loudest.


It's actually true. If a class-d amp is 90% efficient, and rated at 1500w FTC, you can actually get that out of a standard 15A circuit. No way you can do that with a 50% efficient class-ab.

 

[SpamBot]

Best thing about class-d amps is their watts are the loudest.


It's actually true. If a class-d amp is 90% efficient, and rated at 1500w FTC, you can actually get that out of a standard 15A circuit. No way you can do that with a 50% efficient class-ab.

Then what's your take on the 3600 watts claimed by your beloved Behr/Bugera for the class a/b "Nuke"?

 

[Pat C.]

This is true mostly in music forms where the bass takes a back seat. In rock music for example, folks go to a concert and the bass players part never stands out because he's not audible. They feel something in their chest but they just think the music is really loud...

However, take that same crowd to a funk gig where the bass player take a slap solo that's full of melodic, harmonic and rhythmic ideas, and they usually leave thinking it was one of the most impressive parts of the whole show.

I think this alludes to the crux of the matter as it pertains to live bass playing: how good is the mix? If the bass is placed properly in the overall FOH mix then it is usually noticed by the audience. Their pants are flapping a little (and not just when the kick drum hits ) and their butts are groovin' because the bass is making 'em groove.

I've played many shows when the mix was rockin' with bass and the audience definitely notices. I recall one memorable show where the luthier of my basses happened to be in attendance and my bass was (according to an audience member) tearing the room apart. His comment was "I feel like I'm at an Anthony Jackson concert." Now, I'm quite sure he wasn't referring to my playing, but the all-encompassing presence of the bass guitar.

Despite the overall FOH mix likely being slightly unbalanced toward the low end that night the crowd response was very good (and different than usual), I could tell the effect I was having on their listening experience simply by my instrument being so present in the overall mix. That's probably more common in funk or reggae styles, and not really common at all in pop/rock music. Sure is a cool experience as a player, though.

 

[seamonkey]

I said "FTC"
There's no rating on the B*