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Only $2,000 to improve your amp's performance

#664
Wow. This thread is still open?

Partly motivated by this thread, I participated in a completely unscientific and non-blind A/B test between a very expensive Synergistic power cable and a cheap stock IEC power cable using a Yamamoto tube stereo power amp.(This amp produces 2 watts of output.. yes, let me repeat that, 2 whole watts MAX.

The difference was enough to make me uninterested in bothering to further participate in any "scientific" or theoretical discussion about it. They simply sounded different, period end of story. (Playing various jazz tracks on vinyl, there was an audible improvement in clarity of the double bass and less hashyness(?) in highs then the stock cable with this particular amp in this particular setup. It was discernible even with my damaged, tinnitus-addled ears).

I expected to NOT hear a difference because I've been informed by my pro-audio friends and this forum that there is no scientific basis for a difference. I secretly hoped I could have a laugh at my deep-pocketed, GAS-afflicted audiophile friend.

Okay, even though I heard a difference, it was very subtle. My conclusion is that the marketing and pricing of "audiophile" power cables is completely laughable bs, and I certainly wouldn't considering using one for something as tonally subjective and (intentionally) unrefined as a bass amp.
 
#665
RockBobby said:
Penn Gellette was in my HS class in Greenfield, MA. He was a clown then!

Check this out!

http://consumerist.com/2008/03/do-coat-hangers-sound-as-good-monster-cables.html

.
Click to expand...

Not shocking. A coat hanger, with its thick, solid core and thin enamel coating is probably closer to magnet wire then the other cables tested. I'm no techie, but does it make sense to assume that what's good for a high-end speaker crossover (magnet wire) should also do well as speaker cable?
 
#667
Bob = The wet blanket of reason.

I guess this means I should stop holding my breath for the launch of the new QSC Audio super-duper-oh my-god-you-are-there-in-the-room-with-the-musicians! "Voice of God" (Version 1.2a) PowERRR ConductORRR! (tm) power cord.
 
#670
Bob Lee (QSC) said:
It's easy to imagine a difference, even a non-existent one, in a non-blind test.
Click to expand...

Years ago Julian Hirsh [of Hirsch-Houck Laboratories] wrote in Stereophile [or was is Stereo Review?] about how he and the other trained ears in the lab set up a double blind test of high end cables versus 16-ga zip cord, and nobody could tell the difference....and everyone of these guys were trained professionals....

Years later I attended a local audiophile shoot-out designed to point out the differences between a US$3000 CD-player and a US$300 player. Though there was no audible difference that I could detect, the salesman made a point of mentioning when the switch was thrown, and the mark, I mean, the customer, nodded in agreement every time the salesman flicked the switch.

My last story though is about a time when my local boys were at their peak with Speakerlab, and had attracted a competitor that called themselves SpeakerFactory. Browsing the latter's showroom one day I overheard a salesman bragging up their latest Super-7 killer. The 'mark,' I mean customer, wanted to hear a side by side test with the aforementioned Super-7s, and amazingly the SF salesman said he'd oblige him. As he loaded a pair of the speakers onto a hand truck I snuck out the door and made my way across the street [yep, they opened up across the street from Speakerlab....] and slipped into the Speakerlab auditioning room.

As the Speakerlab folks disconnected a pair of 2.5s in order to make room for the visiting team's product, you could catch a glimpse of the locals making googly eyes at each other....

With the two rigs set up side by side, the competition began:

First, the Speakerlab guys cranked up the visiting pair of speakers, and at a moderate volume level they sounded not bad...but then with a visible smirk the guy punched the switch and engaged the Super-7s.

Well, it was like turning off a boom box and turning on a professional PA system. Back and forth the Speakerlab guys flipped the outputs, at which point the SpeakerFactory guys started turning a little green...

Then they turned the volume up. Waaay up...until the SpeakerFactory speakers started to cr@p out, seriously sounding like damage was eminent.

Then, with the tap of a finger on the speaker selector, the Super7s came on, and sounded brilliant....even cranked to near painful levels, and as the SpeakerFactory guys loaded up their pieces of cr@p back onto their hand truck and left, the customer and the rest of us hung around enjoying what good design means in comparison to hype....
 
#673
seamonkey said:
What kind of wire did you get your electrical contractor to put in the wall?

The old chain is only as strong as the weakest link fable. Putting in some heavy links still leaves the weak ones there.
Click to expand...

We thought about this too. But the ESP cables still allows our system amplifiers to produce a different tone. A smoother warmer tone which my employees and I liked over the standard cables.
 
#675
seamonkey said:
What kind of wire did you get your electrical contractor to put in the wall?

The old chain is only as strong as the weakest link fable. Putting in some heavy links still leaves the weak ones there.
Click to expand...


This is an avoidable truth - it is physically impossible for a "magic" IEC cable to change what's already being delivered to an electrical outlet... How anyone can't understand that is beyond me, as it's a fairly simple concept...



- georgestrings
 
#676
Queg said:
Wow. This thread is still open?

Partly motivated by this thread, I participated in a completely unscientific and non-blind A/B test between a very expensive Synergistic power cable and a cheap stock IEC power cable using a Yamamoto tube stereo power amp.(This amp produces 2 watts of output.. yes, let me repeat that, 2 whole watts MAX.

The difference was enough to make me uninterested in bothering to further participate in any "scientific" or theoretical discussion about it. They simply sounded different, period end of story. (Playing various jazz tracks on vinyl, there was an audible improvement in clarity of the double bass and less hashyness(?) in highs then the stock cable with this particular amp in this particular setup. It was discernible even with my damaged, tinnitus-addled ears).

I expected to NOT hear a difference because I've been informed by my pro-audio friends and this forum that there is no scientific basis for a difference. I secretly hoped I could have a laugh at my deep-pocketed, GAS-afflicted audiophile friend.

Okay, even though I heard a difference, it was very subtle. My conclusion is that the marketing and pricing of "audiophile" power cables is completely laughable bs, and I certainly wouldn't considering using one for something as tonally subjective and (intentionally) unrefined as a bass amp.
Click to expand...

Here, hear. Exactly. Some things perhaps 'can't' be measured scientifically, but musicians, at least sensitive ones, can tell the difference.

Bob Lee (QSC) said:
It's easy to imagine a difference, even a non-existent one, in a non-blind test.
Click to expand...

By non-existent you mean 'unable to be measured by our current capabilities'...a Strad and a chinese knock off possibly measure the same...

georgestrings said:
This is an avoidable truth - it is physically impossible for a "magic" IEC cable to change what's already being delivered to an electrical outlet... How anyone can't understand that is beyond me, as it's a fairly simple concept...

- georgestrings
Click to expand...

I guess, then, that power conditioners don't work, and neither do water conditioners/purifiers....if it's not pure back at the source, nothing can be done....:scowl:

stroy05 said:
We thought about this too. But the ESP cables still allows our system amplifiers to produce a different tone. A smoother warmer tone which my employees and I liked over the standard cables.
Click to expand...

Yup...same thing I and several notable musicians in this city have found with the $350.00 power cable I won...and I was EXTREMELY skeptical...Bob, I'll send it to you, and you can make all the measurements you want, but FIRST, use your ears.


seamonkey said:
What kind of wire did you get your electrical contractor to put in the wall?

The old chain is only as strong as the weakest link fable. Putting in some heavy links still leaves the weak ones there.
Click to expand...

From the audio devices perspective, the FIRST THING that hits it is the power cable/power conditioner. I hear NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL when I plug my equipment into my $150.00 rack-mount reputable company power conditioner, none whatsoever, 0%, nada, absolutely NOTHING, even though the meters tell me how much its working, and Bob's Fresnic-freen modulator apparatus could probably measure the amount it's working by, and I paid $150.00 for it...but the $350.00 Audio Dynamics cable that I won for free, that cost me NOTHING (well, shipping, $28.00), nada, $0.00, and I can hear a difference. Why doesn't the 'placebo effect' kick in to protect my $$$ investment, but it kicks in for a ridiculous looking phallic power cable that is inconvenient, heavy, ugly, awkward, will possibly BREAK the power connection on the back of my amp, everyone here including audio engineers says it does NOTHING but I can hear the difference everytime I plug it in? Why aren't I jumping up and down about my power conditioner, with all the flashing lights and meters screaming "LOOK, I'M WORKING", but I hear absolutely NO difference. I even had to buy a bigger rack to mount the damn thing, and it added weight to my rig. But I hear NOTHING....

I don't think we should all go out and spend $17,000.00 on a high end power cable. But my experience with my $350.00 dollar one has changed my mind about them. Mine is 12 gauge solid copper on the inside, then shielded with a bunch of dylithium crystals...I don't know HOW, but it works. A little bit. Maybe 2%.

Bob, I'll ship this thing to you at MY expense. If you can't hear or measure a difference, in a bunch of different circumstances, I'll pay for return shipping. If you hear or measure a difference, YOU pay return shipping. I was going to do the same deal with Tom Bowlus a couple of years ago, but he's too freaking busy. How about putting some $$$ where your slide rule is?

AND YOU HAVE TO PUBLISH YOUR RESULTS HERE, REGARDLESS OF WHICH WAY IT GOES>>>!

And in spite of our differences on this topic, I still like you, man! Let's be agreeable in our disagreement...

even though YOU'RE COMPLETELY ******* 110% TOTALLY WRONG!

:D:hiding::p:):smug::hyper:

The balls in your court....

Cheers,
Cameron
 
#677
No, I mean non-existent as in "doesn't exist."

Keep in mind that we're talking about a power cable, not a Strad versus a Chinese knock-off. I understand that it may seem like a plausible analogy if you know nothing about power cables, however simple a concept they may be.

I don't mind that some buy $350 or $2000 power cables. After all, life is an IQ test, and there can and should be some incentive to developing one's reason and intelligence. The better you are able to discern marketing hype from reality, the less likely you are to be taken for an expensive ride.
 
#678
Queg performed an admittedly unscientific test into which he went with preconceived notions. His faith satisfied, he proclaimed that he is now "uninterested in bothering to further participate in any "scientific" or theoretical discussion about it." The folly of this is clearly evidenced by your sense of victory that the results came out as you hoped, a priori.

Your conclusions carry absolutely zero weight with rational people. If you haven't done a double blind test on a statistically significant sample size, you have no idea whether the cable makes a difference or not. You are basing your conclusions solely on superstition.
 
#679
Bassflute said:
Mine is 12 gauge solid copper on the inside, then shielded with a bunch of dylithium crystals...I don't know HOW, but it works. A little bit. Maybe 2%.
Click to expand...

I think it's awesome that the fictional material used to power warp drive in Star Trek has been adapted to power cable technology.

Can you get it with adamantium plugs? That would probably net you a 4, maybe 5% difference.
 
#680
Bassflute said:
I guess, then, that power conditioners don't work, and neither do water conditioners/purifiers....if it's not pure back at the source, nothing can be done....:scowl:
Click to expand...


Actually, power conditioners are more snake oil aimed towards the uneducated - they do nothing more than a $10 surge strip can accomplish... Truth is, I expect the same sort of rubes that would buy a power conditioner to also buy into the high dollar IEC cable...

Water purifiers are a different animal, since the impurities they remove can be measured - clearly apples and oranges in that case...



- georgestrings
 

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