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Original bands playing for free: a chronic problem
- Thread starter behemecoytl
- Start date
you try to make an analogy with "illegal labor" in all your replies, even when the post you're replying to doesn't have anything to do with it (he speaks about new technologies and you reply with illegal labor?! what?!)
but what I'd like to know: what part of the live musique business does have something that you would qualify as "illegal labor"?
but what I'd like to know: what part of the live musique business does have something that you would qualify as "illegal labor"?
For what it is worth, if I were based in a college town, I'd be doing the following:
1) Hit up the Student Government for gigs. They have money and hire bands. Depending upon the size of the school and their budget, they will support gigs from having a band play in an open square to name acts in the stadium. There's lots there. I'd try to get as many of the small gigs as possible to get paid exposure on campus.
2) Promote everywhere - make sure people see your name - the cool thing about campuses is that there is a tight concentration of people in a small area.
3) Once you got the word out from playing on campus and through the promotion, hit up the frats and the sororities.
The good thing about the frats and sororities is that they will pay and they usually pay well. You will, however, need to play what they want to hear for the event, which usually will not include originals unless you have established a good name on campus and people will be jazzed to see you. Otherwise, you're playing what they want.
When I was in college (FSU in the early 80s), we had a country band and cleaned up on sorority hayride parties in the fall.
4) Club gigs... If you want to make money, don't bother with clubs when there is a university, dozens of frats and sororities and campus organizations willing to actually pay you money to play and are likely to be excited about having you there. Actually, I'm wrong - you might do well in the clubs if you have established yourself on campus and can draw a crowd from that.
1) Hit up the Student Government for gigs. They have money and hire bands. Depending upon the size of the school and their budget, they will support gigs from having a band play in an open square to name acts in the stadium. There's lots there. I'd try to get as many of the small gigs as possible to get paid exposure on campus.
2) Promote everywhere - make sure people see your name - the cool thing about campuses is that there is a tight concentration of people in a small area.
3) Once you got the word out from playing on campus and through the promotion, hit up the frats and the sororities.
The good thing about the frats and sororities is that they will pay and they usually pay well. You will, however, need to play what they want to hear for the event, which usually will not include originals unless you have established a good name on campus and people will be jazzed to see you. Otherwise, you're playing what they want.
When I was in college (FSU in the early 80s), we had a country band and cleaned up on sorority hayride parties in the fall.
4) Club gigs... If you want to make money, don't bother with clubs when there is a university, dozens of frats and sororities and campus organizations willing to actually pay you money to play and are likely to be excited about having you there. Actually, I'm wrong - you might do well in the clubs if you have established yourself on campus and can draw a crowd from that.
My bad. Looked to me like you were a DJ.
To answer your question ( and I can't believe so many of you do not see the parallel here) Illegal's come into this country and work for far less than what anyone else can afford to work for. They don't pay taxes, they don't contribute to the economy and greedy people hire them to save a buck. This all HURTS the industry and it HURTS the economy. Now, when bands are willing to play for free, it makes it harder for working bands to charge reasonable fees to play a show. It HURTS the industry. It devalues what musicians do, the same as illegal labor devalues the industries it thrives in, which these days is a heck of a lot more than roofing, grass cutting and nannying.
My bad. Looked to me like you were a DJ.
To answer your question ( and I can't believe so many of you do not see the parallel here) Illegal's come into this country and work for far less than what anyone else can afford to work for. They don't pay taxes, they don't contribute to the economy and greedy people hire them to save a buck. This all HURTS the industry and it HURTS the economy. Now, when bands are willing to play for free, it makes it harder for working bands to charge reasonable fees to play a show. It HURTS the industry. It devalues what musicians do, the same as illegal labor devalues the industries it thrives in, which these days is a heck of a lot more than roofing, grass cutting and nannying.
I'm with you on the illegals or shall we say "undoccumented workers"
having a terrible impact on jobs, wages and our econmy, but comparing my original rock band (which by the way can hold our own with just about anybody) is just a bad comparison and clouds up the issue.Afterall, it's not as if club owners get us at a discount because we don't have a legit SS number! Besides, are you paying taxes on your gig income?????????????? It's not a job to me, I don't view it as work, nor do I care to.
When your business is anothers art or hobby, that is something the business man has to deal with, get over it! (see post #163)
All this proves is guy number 3 has been sniffing too many paint fumes.
If he has a decent product he should charge for it because his time and supplies are not free.
Those who equate hobbyists playing for free to illegal immigrant workers are missing a critical difference between fungible labor and specialized labor. Most jobs taken by illegal immigrants (not only in the US, by the way) is unskilled fungible labor. Musical performance should be highly specialized artistry. A good band should provide a unique performance experience, which means that they cannot be replaced by just anyone willing to show up. If a professional band is getting edged out by hobbyists playing for free, that professional band should seek a client base which appreciates it's added value or it should take a hard look at what (if anything) makes that band special. If I were losing clients to lawyers working for free, I would first look at what I'm doing wrong before I would blame the other guys.
Are you?I'm with you on the illegals or shall we say "undoccumented workers"
Afterall, it's not as if club owners get us at a discount because we don't have a legit SS number! Besides, are you paying taxes on your gig income?????????????? It's not a job to me, I don't view it as work, nor do I care to.
When your business is anothers art or hobby, that is something the business man has to deal with, get over it! (see post #163)
All thids proves is guy number 3 has been sniffing too many paint fumes.
Perhaps! But...........he has the choice not to! For him the satisfaction may be enough. You, I, some anonymous forum poster or the Maaco shop owner are in no position to tell him that he's wrong!
The problem with bands playing for free is it drives down the price for bands that do get paid. What if all bands that played bar gigs were paid say a minumum of $300.00 a night. Bands that had a better product and draw could then be paid say $500.00 a night. But if there are plenty of business challenged bands with worthless product willing to play for nothing then the better bands have to drop their price. It is hard to compete with free.
As i said, you can make any number of arguments and points, but in the end it comes down to those that tolerate and encourage the situation. The market is paid live music, all the other points you make are competition for paid live music. Not being paid is not competition it is exploitation.
I have played in several types or styles of bands and in Connecticut its cover bands that make the money,
That said I play and write my own tunes and yeh its not profitable but Im not sure are you in college?
Sell some CD's and T-Shirts maybe book a weekend original band party get about 8 bands and charge admission have it at a private house or rent a Hall all the college folks show at 5 or 6 bucks a ticket and the bars are empty that night they might show more gratitude.The reward with originals is getting your music out there.To be a musician with no originals is like being an artist and all your works are paint by numbers.
Plus the economy is a little off now so play for the sake of playing it will get better (I hope)
That said I play and write my own tunes and yeh its not profitable but Im not sure are you in college?
Sell some CD's and T-Shirts maybe book a weekend original band party get about 8 bands and charge admission have it at a private house or rent a Hall all the college folks show at 5 or 6 bucks a ticket and the bars are empty that night they might show more gratitude.The reward with originals is getting your music out there.To be a musician with no originals is like being an artist and all your works are paint by numbers.
Plus the economy is a little off now so play for the sake of playing it will get better (I hope)
You were not who I intended the post for.
I also work in the construction industry. With the housing crash business has been slow and many businesses in my area went under. I make a good portion of my income from music and pay taxes on it every year. It is a fun job and beats pounding nails.You were not who I intended the post for.
You got that right.
Yeah, it's been a bad couple years around here. It's been fairly decent for about 3 months, but here in St. Louis we had some pretty bad storms a few weeks back and it's just a matter of time before the illegals flood back into town.
What I see is the impending death of "live music" period. I realize that it is cyclical and I have lived thru several cycles. It will probably come back but I think it will be awhile before that happens. I know that this scenario is not the norm everywhere. Every weekend there are live bands playing out but, usually, for nearly nothing. The gas alone to get to a gig makes the whole night unprofitable.
In a world where the most listened to music (?) is rap and "Gaga" (who uses no musicians) what should we expect?
Maybe "free play" is the way of the future.You know "fun" and a chance to play for a crowd and a reason for your band to exist (no gigs no band). The market will only pay what it feels the product is worth. Maybe it is no longer worth much or it is a major drag on costs to run a venue that would normally provide live music. Why would you hire a band if you can get a DJ to play Gaga and rap all night for 1/4 of what a band would charge with the same result ( lot's of beer chugging). Or be a "sports" bar with big TV's and produce the same profit margin.
I am slowly beginning to see no reason for the existence of live music in America.
In a world where the most listened to music (?) is rap and "Gaga" (who uses no musicians) what should we expect?
Maybe "free play" is the way of the future.You know "fun" and a chance to play for a crowd and a reason for your band to exist (no gigs no band). The market will only pay what it feels the product is worth. Maybe it is no longer worth much or it is a major drag on costs to run a venue that would normally provide live music. Why would you hire a band if you can get a DJ to play Gaga and rap all night for 1/4 of what a band would charge with the same result ( lot's of beer chugging). Or be a "sports" bar with big TV's and produce the same profit margin.
I am slowly beginning to see no reason for the existence of live music in America.
WRONG!!!!!
How about you try to cut and weld a new core support on this truck, put it all back together, WORKING PROPERLY, and painted to match the rest of the truck and call it "fungible labor"
You couldn't be farther off base my friend. Floyd and I might not see "eye to eye"
on the merits of original bands playing for free, but we certainly know the difference between cleaning a toilet and performing highly skilled labor! And, we both know that illegal workers are, and have been undermining our efforts and our income for years and years!PS: No offense to anyone who cleans toilets!
