Original bands playing for free: a chronic problem

[Hawaii Islander]

Bands in the 70's north of Boston used to take advantage of the summer weather and arrange concerts at parks, block parties, etc. They used to have concession stand permits that allowed them to sell food, drinks, t-shirts, etc. You might look into that as an alternative to the bars.

Also, if your band brought in a good crowd for the local bars, just stop playing for them for a while, then check in with them later to see if they missed you. If they did, hit them up for a fair deal to play in the future.

 

[Floyd Eye]

Hey homeslice, I know enough about you from your posts to know that you are NOT a bad ass. Or certainly not bad.

Really? You can tell that from what some anonymous guy posts on the internet huh?

Well, you truly ARE a bad ass. Well, I got at least half that statement correct.

 

[Rob Martinez]

Really? You can tell that from what some anonymous guy posts on the internet huh?

Well, you truly ARE a bad ass. Well, I got at least half that statement correct.

Lame. Can you even make an intelligent argument? The answer is no. So you go off on some ridiculous tangent about illegal workers, as if that has ANYTHING to do with bands playing for free.

WAKE UP!

 

[Rob Martinez]

Bands in the 70's north of Boston used to take advantage of the summer weather and arrange concerts at parks, block parties, etc. They used to have concession stand permits that allowed them to sell food, drinks, t-shirts, etc. You might look into that as an alternative to the bars.

Also, if your band brought in a good crowd for the local bars, just stop playing for them for a while, then check in with them later to see if they missed you. If they did, hit them up for a fair deal to play in the future.

All good ideas.

And situations vary from city to city, region to region. There is a place here that does not pay, bands play for tips. And a LOT of bands do this. Each band has to decide whether they will or not. Some do, some don't.

But no one waits for each other after a gig to show displeasure if a band chooses to do so. That would just be STUPID.

When a band is just getting started, covers or originals, the fact is you may have to play for free a few times to get a name for yourself and get established. That's how it works. There are original music venues in town that still base hiring groups on whether the band can sell beer or not. Go figure.

That is just how it works here.

 

[Top_Ten]

In my experience (nearly 30 years playing in bands, mostly originals, everywhere from bars to major venues), there are three basic motivations for playing bar-type gigs. These are not mutually exclusive and many bands may be motivated by more than one of them, but roughly speaking, this is why people put in the time and energy it takes to do a bar gig:

1. Enjoyment/artistic fulfillment/meeting chicks/hanging out with friends, regardless of financial reward.

2. Skill development, making connections, getting exposure, with the hope of long-term financial reward, but not much concern with getting paid for the specific gig.

3. The fee for the specific gig.

Bar owners, of course, don't care which of these three factors is motivating any particular band. They just want folks to come in and drink. So naturally, all else being equal, they will book bands in categories 1 and 2 who are likely to be willing to play for less. You can't blame the bar owners for that.

Similarly, it is pretty silly to criticize the bands in categories 1 and 2, or accuse them of "stealing" gigs, just because they have different motivations from the bands in category 3 and, therefore, are willing to work cheap.

Also, as a side note, in terms of quality music, I'd guess (although obviously I can't prove) that the bands in categories 1 and 2 are more likely than the bands in category 3 to produce interesting, original music.

Now, to be fair, all of the above applies to original bands. I've never been in any kind of cover band scene, so perhaps things are different there. Although, even in the cover band scenario, the fact is that some people do cover bands for a hobby. If you want to get paid for what others do purely for enjoyment, you are facing an uphill battle.

Keep in mind, most people in the world have jobs that nobody would do for free because their jobs are not a whole lot of fun. If you are lucky enough to do something inherently fun for a job -- like playing music -- then you just have to deal with the fact that you will be competing with hobbyists. You need to get good enough and popular enough to make it worth paying you rather than booking a hobbyist for free. Nobody owes you that and nobody said the world was fair.

 

[fhm555]

...A good band should provide a unique performance experience, which means that they cannot be replaced by just anyone willing to show up. If a professional band is getting edged out by hobbyists playing for free, that professional band should seek a client base which appreciates it's added value or it should take a hard look at what (if anything) makes that band special. If I were losing clients to lawyers working for free, I would first look at what I'm doing wrong before I would blame the other guys.

+1

 

[fingerbun]

You got me, I am actually a communist.

I don't care about your politics, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....

"The bar owners (bourgeoisie) control the venues (means of production) and use this to exploit musicians (the workers)"

You are arguing from Karl Marx, not Adam Smith.

Smith would argue

"There are certain circumstances, however, which sometimes give the labourers an advantage, and enable them to raise their wages considerably above this rate; evidently the lowest which is consistent with common humanity. "​

IE differentiate your product.

Am I simplifying the argument? Absolutely. But "Das Kapital" and "Weath of Nations" are both available free online if you want to look for yourself and form a more considered view.

 

[Floyd Eye]

Lame. Can you even make an intelligent argument? The answer is no. So you go off on some ridiculous tangent about illegal workers, as if that has ANYTHING to do with bands playing for free.

WAKE UP!

You ought to brush up on your critical thinking skills. Or better yet, quit wasting your time here, don't you have some tickets you need to be selling or a BOB you need to be practicing for.

 

[Floyd Eye]

I don't care about your politics, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....

"The bar owners (bourgeoisie) control the venues (means of production) and use this to exploit musicians (the workers)"

You are arguing from Karl Marx, not Adam Smith.

Smith would argue

"There are certain circumstances, however, which sometimes give the labourers an advantage, and enable them to raise their wages considerably above this rate; evidently the lowest which is consistent with common humanity. "​

IE differentiate your product.

Am I simplifying the argument? Absolutely. But "Das Kapital" and "Weath of Nations" are both available free online if you want to look for yourself and form a more considered view.

Nah, that's cool. I'll take your word for it.

 

[fingerbun]

Nah, that's cool. I'll take your word for it.

Good. Cos otherwise I was going to have to turn up in the carpark after your gig for a little chat

 

[Floyd Eye]

Good. Cos otherwise I was going to have to turn up in the carpark after your gig for a little chat

Shame. We always welcome some nice winding down after a gig. lol


For real, I can kind of understand your point. Bands that draw have little to fear from bands that don't. Still, I don't think it's good for the scene and I think most other working bands generally look down on it. I also understand that bands have to start somewhere and that may mean playing for free once or twice until you're established. I also understand being in it for the love of music, but loving music and getting paid to perform it are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Jason P Bass]

I don't care about your politics, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....

"The bar owners (bourgeoisie) control the venues (means of production) and use this to exploit musicians (the workers)"

You are arguing from Karl Marx, not Adam Smith.

Smith would argue

"There are certain circumstances, however, which sometimes give the labourers an advantage, and enable them to raise their wages considerably above this rate; evidently the lowest which is consistent with common humanity. "​

IE differentiate your product.

Am I simplifying the argument? Absolutely. But "Das Kapital" and "Weath of Nations" are both available free online if you want to look for yourself and form a more considered view.

This was precisely my line of thinking.

 

[Hawaii Islander]

I read through several posts and have yet to see anyone mention a band setting a cover charge at the door. A lot of places that I frequented allowed the band to establish a cover, usually $5, but they had to have their own person collect the money at the door, Really good bands got higher covers and a percentage/or set fee to play.

 

[modulusman]

Too bad that bars are not required to pay their bands. If they were I bet alot of you play for free bands would be unable to get a gig.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Maybe. It's not my intent to drag anyone down, or to criticize anyone here. Just to share ideas that others may find useful.



Hope this helps and is seen as constructive, not an argument.

You make great points and put a case very well, but you drift from the point agin with analogies. Abba in the 70s, Lilly Allen, van Gogh, Mozart etc. These all come from a different time and era, and each have a very different set of circumstances. Lily Allen for example as a very famous father who opened doors for her.

There is a starting place to earn money and that is in bars, which this thread is about. Its not about the business of being famous as that has two many points of influence and description. It is not about the music industry, that is run by the Majors and controlled by the Majors using market forces not artist interests.

When i say "You" it is a "You" in the context of anyone that does it not meaning just you, so i apoligise if that seemed personal.
Yes i agree anyone has the right to play for whatever they want...even free. But it is not in the interests of bars to let people do what they want, there are laws and rules to govern the behavour and conditions in bars.
All i am saying, and i speak from experience, is that once the fee paying public get used to free, they expect it. Once a band scene has been eroded it is hard to get back...i'm sure there are many here that will testify to how good their local scene was.

Its not a "pinnicle" playing bars and such its a job, like many music jobs it pays bills, is better than sitting in an office, or working a store ( for me anyways) because it takes you out and about. I meet artists from all over the world in bars, clubs and festivals around Europe and not one of us will ever have the chance to be "famous" unless we are un-lucky enough have a hit that catches the publics attention. Bar scenes are the grass roots of playing and socialising in any town.

 

[matthew4414]

set up your own gigs and take money at the door

 

[fingerbun]

Fergie, you make intelligent posts and it's a lot of work to give you the responses that you deserve

you drift from the point agin with analogies.

I see it as all connected - how to make money in music. You are welcome to differ, and those reading this are welcome to block me.

Abba in the 70s, Lilly Allen, van Gogh, Mozart etc. These all come from a different time and era, and each have a very different set of circumstances.

I deliberately did that to make the point that none of this is a new situation.

Lily Allen for example as a very famous father who opened doors for her.

It's unclear to me how many doors Keith Allen opened for Lily. But fair point. I could talk about Imogen Heap's use of social media as a communication and market research tool, Judie Tzuke's delivery of home-crafted albums by mail when she had no distribution deals, and so on.

There is a starting place to earn money and that is in bars, which this thread is about. Its not about the business of being famous as that has two many points of influence and description. It is not about the music industry, that is run by the Majors and controlled by the Majors using market forces not artist interests.

I thought it was about making money from the music business. Playing live is only one example of how to make money. If you play originals, it has to be about an original sound that people will pay for.

Nonetheless, everyone who reads this is welcome to take what they can from it.

When i say "You" it is a "You" in the context of anyone that does it not meaning just you, so i apoligise if that seemed personal.

Absolutely understand. No offence taken. I appreciate the points you are making. And likewise I have made some forceful arguments but they were made without malice and I apologise for any offence I may have caused.

Yes i agree anyone has the right to play for whatever they want...even free. But it is not in the interests of bars to let people do what they want, there are laws and rules to govern the behavour and conditions in bars.
All i am saying, and i speak from experience, is that once the fee paying public get used to free, they expect it. Once a band scene has been eroded it is hard to get back...i'm sure there are many here that will testify to how good their local scene was.

Sure. So short of denying others the opportunities you and I had, what do you suggest we do about it?

not one of us will ever have the chance to be "famous" unless we are un-lucky enough have a hit that catches the publics attention.

love it, and agree 100%.

 

[Rob Martinez]

You ought to brush up on your critical thinking skills. Or better yet, quit wasting your time here, don't you have some tickets you need to be selling or a BOB you need to be practicing for.

Why? It's clear you just wouldn't get it anyway.

 

[bassbully]

In my experience (nearly 30 years playing in bands, mostly originals, everywhere from bars to major venues), there are three basic motivations for playing bar-type gigs. These are not mutually exclusive and many bands may be motivated by more than one of them, but roughly speaking, this is why people put in the time and energy it takes to do a bar gig:

1. Enjoyment/artistic fulfillment/meeting chicks/hanging out with friends, regardless of financial reward.

2. Skill development, making connections, getting exposure, with the hope of long-term financial reward, but not much concern with getting paid for the specific gig.

3. The fee for the specific gig.

Bar owners, of course, don't care which of these three factors is motivating any particular band. They just want folks to come in and drink. So naturally, all else being equal, they will book bands in categories 1 and 2 who are likely to be willing to play for less. You can't blame the bar owners for that.

Similarly, it is pretty silly to criticize the bands in categories 1 and 2, or accuse them of "stealing" gigs, just because they have different motivations from the bands in category 3 and, therefore, are willing to work cheap.

Also, as a side note, in terms of quality music, I'd guess (although obviously I can't prove) that the bands in categories 1 and 2 are more likely than the bands in category 3 to produce interesting, original music.

Now, to be fair, all of the above applies to original bands. I've never been in any kind of cover band scene, so perhaps things are different there. Although, even in the cover band scenario, the fact is that some people do cover bands for a hobby. If you want to get paid for what others do purely for enjoyment, you are facing an uphill battle.

Keep in mind, most people in the world have jobs that nobody would do for free because their jobs are not a whole lot of fun. If you are lucky enough to do something inherently fun for a job -- like playing music -- then you just have to deal with the fact that you will be competing with hobbyists. You need to get good enough and popular enough to make it worth paying you rather than booking a hobbyist for free. Nobody owes you that and nobody said the world was fair.

This is some of the best advice I have seen posted on this subject. I couldn't agree more.

 

[bassbully]

I read through several posts and have yet to see anyone mention a band setting a cover charge at the door. A lot of places that I frequented allowed the band to establish a cover, usually $5, but they had to have their own person collect the money at the door, Really good bands got higher covers and a percentage/or set fee to play.

I said this from the start. In my area we have two colleges and all the bars charge a few bucks to see a band at the door. If all else fails and the bars pushes back and with a scene that bad, I told them do a Dollar at the door and split with the bar 50/50. It's better than what they are getting now which is nothing.