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PA gear advice...

Sav'nBass

Sav'nBass

Jan 18, 2009
4,783
2,516
Virginia Beach
#1
Some friends and I from church are thinking of starting a small jazz ensemble.. (SACRILEGE!!:eyebrow::smug:;) .. we figure we can go out among the folks and still be who we are and let that speak for itself without beating folks upside the head with our faith and who knows.. maybe add a few more souls to the kingdom in the process)We are going to meet tonight in about 90 minutes to discuss things and lay down some plans. So far we have drums, guitar, sax .. a female vocalist.. (the wife..) and of course bass.. We would like to round it out with keys but so far we haven't filled that hole yet..

We will need some kind of PA gear and I am seeking advice because I know absolutely nothing about PA gear.. I have heard it said that Behringer makes much better PA gear than bass/guitar gear ... but I don't know this to be a fact. I am looking at several manufacturers in my range.. I have been looking at a few 4-8 channel setups from at GC.. I am thinking that we should go at least 4 channel if not 8 .. room for growth and not having to do it again soon but I want to get something that will sound decent.. but we are not planning to do anything really large.. mostly small venues and we won't have a lot of vocalists. My wife will be doing the heavy lifting and eventually if I can manage to pull it off without screwing up the basslines.. largely depending on the song.. I may sing as well..

So what do you suggest.. I have been looking in the $300-$600 price range. If you guys know of something less expensive or on the lower end that will not have me regretting getting it in a year I am all ears.. or in this case all eyes..
 
#2
In your budget range, you might also consider Seismic Audio( http://www.seismicaudiospeakers.com ) at least for the speakers. I've got a pair of their PWS-15's(molded 15+horn+amp) and a pair of their NPS-15's(same but no amp). Side-by-side they are much better than the Behringer. A mixer(Behringer or other) with powered cabs would be my choice in your situation.
 
#4
If I were you I would try to increase my price range.

I have to say that in your price range you could easily find a used Yamaha EMX 512SC, with a couple of main speakers and a couple of monitors. These are decent 12 channel powered mixers and will even allow you to add a powered sub or use a power amp to drive one.

If it were me though I would be looking for a good deal on a good passive mixer ( Mixwiz 16:3, Mackie VLZ16, etc..) and decent powered speakers.
 
#6
With a passive mixer and at least 16 channels you have room to grow. You can also choose between power amps and passive speakers and powered speakers. More flexibility for the future and less chance that you are buying gear that you will someday no longer be able to use or recoup your investment on.
 
#7
I don't mean to offend but I have to ask. Why is starting a jazz band sacrilege?

Do not buy Behringer ANYTHING!! They're cheap for a reason. You'll end up buying it twice, maybe three times.

You're gonna need to spend more money. Check out the Mackie self powered speakers. And you'll want at least one decent monitore for the vocalist to hear herself.
 
#8
MonkeyBass said:
I don't mean to offend but I have to ask. Why is starting a jazz band sacrilege?

Do not buy Behringer ANYTHING!! They're cheap for a reason. You'll end up buying it twice, maybe three times.

You're gonna need to spend more money. Check out the Mackie self powered speakers. And you'll want at least one decent monitore for the vocalist to hear herself.
Click to expand...

Absolute truth.
 
#9
Johnny Crab said:
In your budget range, you might also consider Seismic Audio( http://www.seismicaudiospeakers.com ) at least for the speakers. I've got a pair of their PWS-15's(molded 15+horn+amp) and a pair of their NPS-15's(same but no amp). Side-by-side they are much better than the Behringer. A mixer(Behringer or other) with powered cabs would be my choice in your situation.
Click to expand...

+1 Seismic has some nice bass cabinets at reasonable prices and they sound quite good and are built solidly!
 
#10
You're talking a small jazz ensemble. I'm assuming the bass and guitar will have their own amps, the drummer doesn't need to be amplified - that leaves sax and vocals. Depending on where you play the sax could stand on it's own also. I would look for something like the Yamaha 512 for the vocals (you're gonna need something for rehearsal). If you need a bigger system you could rent. I would wait to see what my real needs are before spending money.
 
#11
MonkeyBass said:
I don't mean to offend but I have to ask. Why is starting a jazz band sacrilege?

Do not buy Behringer ANYTHING!! They're cheap for a reason. You'll end up buying it twice, maybe three times.

You're gonna need to spend more money. Check out the Mackie self powered speakers. And you'll want at least one decent monitore for the vocalist to hear herself.
Click to expand...

That was a joke... Some church folks are pretty ... opinionated on church nmusicians playing "secular" music.. hence the joke.. I'm like Popeye.. Iyam what Iyam and dat's all dat Iyam.. and I pretty much bring me everywhere I go.. so.. and yeah I am also pretty well aware of the rep Behringer has but I had heard that their mixers were decent so I was just wondering if that was the case experientially and the only way to know is to ask.. even if it sounds in sane.. ("Does Behringer make anything good?" .. "NO!! Are you insane!!" ) .. not that I was still more than passingly interested in plopping down $$ for it when it came time to actually do the do.. Thanks guys this is all great stuff and just what I need to know. I am really psyched about this because I have been wanting to do something like this for a long time now.. and everything is just falling into place . We will even have the option of having two places to rehearse.. and there is already a bass amp at one location and I can take my La-15 and leave it at the other place ...
 
#12
Floyd Eye said:
With a passive mixer and at least 16 channels you have room to grow. You can also choose between power amps and passive speakers and powered speakers. More flexibility for the future and less chance that you are buying gear that you will someday no longer be able to use or recoup your investment on.
Click to expand...

So with a passive mixer all it has is the basic power amp to power the mixer but nothing to drive the signal hence the need for either passive speakers and a power amp .. or powered speakers is that what you are saying..? I think I understand what you mean.. and yeah I'd be leaning towards the passive mixer/powered speakers as well.
 
#13
A passive mixer has no power. You need either powered speakers or a power amp to drive passive speakers. The problem with powered mixers is that they are not very expandable. Most have very few aux outs and for the most part whatever power they possess is the upper limit of the power the system will ever possess. With a passive mixer you can always add more power.
 
#14
MonkeyBass said:
I don't mean to offend but I have to ask. Why is starting a jazz band sacrilege?

Do not buy Behringer ANYTHING!! They're cheap for a reason. You'll end up buying it twice, maybe three times.

You're gonna need to spend more money. Check out the Mackie self powered speakers. And you'll want at least one decent monitore for the vocalist to hear herself.
Click to expand...

+1

We started with a passive Mackie 16 used and some borrowed JBL's, then got a pair of Thump 15's, then added a powered 18 Sub. Recently we got a pair of big Mackie floor 15" 3-ways that are 1400w each for inside and add the Thumps and Sub for outside. We also added a passive Mackie ProFx 12 to channel acoustic guitars and vocals and we have some other outboard effects as well. We are still a little weak on monitors as we use 5 little Podium powered 8" 2-ways. We are looking to pick up something a little more substantial for better bass response in the monitors even though I have used the little Podiums for my bass amp lots for small acoustic stuff. I play fretless so they work pretty well at 140w. No deep bass though, at least nothing you can "feel", but they are clear. All this stuff is very versatile, though.

This is for 2-4 vocals, 2- guitars, keys, bass and drums, percussion, depending who shows up and what it's for.
 
#15
First off, you're playing Jazz, so that alone means you probably will be playing mostly intimate events and not dives with chicken coop wire in front of the stage. The rooms will be smaller, or you will be expected to be performing at a comfortable but not loud environment so people can talk and clink drinks and silverware while you are in the background at banquet/dinner situations. On occasion you will play on patios of country clubs and or outside at a winery.

Secondly, this means you won't need a whole heck of a lot of PA. In larger situations you'll need to "mic" more things up. But in smaller rooms you won't even need to mic the sax, just the vocals if you can all agree on a volume level coming from your stage a,pa and the sax and drums not getting any reinforcement.

So here is what I would look at. If you mic'ed up everything in a moderate volume level in a larger room or outdoors at a moderate volume, you would need: 1-Vocal mic (Shure Sm58 minimum, prefer a Shure SM87 or E-V RE410), 1- DI for your bass (at least a Rapco DB-1, must have a ground lift switch), 1-decent clip on Mic for the Sax (Audix makes one, so does AKG, AT, several others..google it), 1-kick drum mic, 1-snare mic, and 1- overhead condenser mic would work well ( there are drum mics kits for all budgets from all manufacturer, but find a decent $100-200 overhead condenser similar to an SM -94/84), 1-guitar mic ( SM-57 minimum), and you'll probably need 1-IPod-ish input so you can spin some Slayer for the folks while you're on break. So you will need at least eight channels. But you may never need 16. A rock band would want a bigger board, but you're not a rock band with high volume environments.

I would suggest getting a Presonus 16.0.2 digital mixer so you can set things up and store them for recall and you get built in Graphic EQ,s and great digital effects for the drums and vocals and sax. Their are a zillion You Tube videos to teach you how to set it all up. you likely will always perform with your mixer at side stage, if the situation is big enough to need a sound man, just hire a sound company or just keep doing it from side stage. But these are a great value. For speakers, you will need some self powered with subs packages. A good value for you would be the JBL PRX's or the lesser expensive EV ELXP's. Mackies are fine, but dollar for dollar and sound pound for sound pound the EV's are a nicer speaker. You will also need at least one vocal monitor or two to give you vocal reference. To this you might save a couple bucks and go with a couple 12" Behringer's, or you might look at a pair of nicer EV ZX-1 self powered boxes or another couple of ELXP 12's. but the EV ZX-1 boxes are amazingly hot for an 8" 2- way.

And really, that is it.
 
#16
Sav'nBass said:
So with a passive mixer all it has is the basic power amp to power the mixer but nothing to drive the signal hence the need for either passive speakers and a power amp .. or powered speakers is that what you are saying..? I think I understand what you mean.. and yeah I'd be leaning towards the passive mixer/powered speakers as well.
Click to expand...

You are correct. Powered boards are limited to what you have, otherwise, you will either go with powered speakers or poweramps with passive speakers with the passive board. Both are similar until you get to big venues where power amps and more speakers are the way to go. Also, what are your needs for the PA? Just vocals and keys and maybe drums and your back line handles guitars and bass, or everything except bass and maybe drums or everything and go with in-ear monitors?
 
#17
With a $300-$600 budget you’ll need to buy secondhand and be patient shopping. Look for a 4-channel (XLR) powered PA mixer w/mon pwr (good powered "active" speakers will most likely put you over budget), 2 main PA speakers (10” or 12” speaker w/ a horn in each cabinet) that can be mounted on stands, 2 stands, 2 monitors (10” or 12” speaker w/ horn in each cabinet), 2 mic’s with stands, and all the cords/cables.

Sav'nBass said:
Some friends and I from church are thinking of starting a small jazz ensemble.. (SACRILEGE!!:eyebrow::smug:;) .. we figure we can go out among the folks and still be who we are and let that speak for itself without beating folks upside the head with our faith and who knows.. maybe add a few more souls to the kingdom in the process)We are going to meet tonight in about 90 minutes to discuss things and lay down some plans. So far we have drums, guitar, sax .. a female vocalist.. (the wife..) and of course bass.. We would like to round it out with keys but so far we haven't filled that hole yet..

We will need some kind of PA gear and I am seeking advice because I know absolutely nothing about PA gear.. I have heard it said that Behringer makes much better PA gear than bass/guitar gear ... but I don't know this to be a fact. I am looking at several manufacturers in my range.. I have been looking at a few 4-8 channel setups from at GC.. I am thinking that we should go at least 4 channel if not 8 .. room for growth and not having to do it again soon but I want to get something that will sound decent.. but we are not planning to do anything really large.. mostly small venues and we won't have a lot of vocalists. My wife will be doing the heavy lifting and eventually if I can manage to pull it off without screwing up the basslines.. largely depending on the song.. I may sing as well..

So what do you suggest.. I have been looking in the $300-$600 price range. If you guys know of something less expensive or on the lower end that will not have me regretting getting it in a year I am all ears.. or in this case all eyes..
Click to expand...
 
#18
Renaissance said:
You're talking a small jazz ensemble. I'm assuming the bass and guitar will have their own amps, the drummer doesn't need to be amplified - that leaves sax and vocals. Depending on where you play the sax could stand on it's own also. I would look for something like the Yamaha 512 for the vocals (you're gonna need something for rehearsal). If you need a bigger system you could rent. I would wait to see what my real needs are before spending money.
Click to expand...

+1. ^^^ This is good advice.
 
#19
I too was leary about buying a Behringer powered mixer, because not only had I heard bad things about Behringer bass amps, I've HEARD Behringer bass amps. Yuck!
However, I took a chance on a used Behringer powered mixer at a really good price, knowing that if we didn't like it, I could probably get most if not all of my money back. Been using it for over a year now and it's been pretty good. It does seem more fragile than others on the market, so we're pretty careful with how we handle it it. But once it's on stage and plugged in, we've run the crap out of it. Never had an issue with it. We gig 3 to 4 times a month. And while I agree that a passive mixer with say, 16 channels and a power amp (or powered speakers) is a better way to do it in the long run, there's nothing wrong with a powered mixer if that's all your budget will allow at the start, or if that's all you'll ever need. Try to get one with built in effects, saves adding it down the road and makes for a simpler plug in and go setup.
 

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